QUESTION ON LITTS

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QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:05 am

JIM, I HAD TO RESORT TO MESSAGE BOARD- MY E MAIL IS NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW.
My question is this. At the bottom of one of the Memorial pages,for March 9,1968 you left this footnote:

*" One man who was inside the APC with Joe saw him struck by the rocket and described the death as "Instant"...as the initial volleys of the battle were exchanged. That man had severe wounds to his head and knee and could barely extract himself from the APC as the flames spread rapidly."

JIM I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO THIS MAN IS--AS HE MIGHT BE ONE OF THE 3 THAT I RESCUED FROM THE BURNING TRACK AND PUT IN MY APC. THANKS -- RIGO
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:57 am

Rigo,
I sent you a response via e-mail. The man was Mike Bennett. Let me know if you don't get the email or cannot open the attachment. I forgot to attach it to the first email & sent it in a second email.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:43 am

DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER WHO ELSE WAS IN THE SQUAD OF THE TRACK THAT BURNED DOWN AT LITTS ?
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:45 am

I do not have more than a name or two for each APC on my map of the action (a work in progress), but the men I have for APC 412 (1st Platoon, 2nd Squad) are Perez (Joseph) and Leavell as well as Bennett. If anyone can help me by sending me the number of their APC with a list of occupants they can remember (Squad member names) I would appreciate the Information. (Also, if you can tell me where you were located in the perimeter (Using "clock location" with North ...or towards Uplift...being 12 o'clock)...and maybe even which APC you remember (On your left and right facing outward).

Easy enough to identify, from the Daily Staff Journal, 3rd Brigade, 4th ID, are the "official" numbers...which we all know are far from accurate. US: 4 killed, 16 wounded, Enemy: 59 KIA, 6 captured. We estimate well over 100 enemy bodies (counted by more than one individual after daylight). Further Research indicates the unit involved (8th Battalion, 22nd NVA Regiment) had seen action during Tam Quan and was heavily staffed by new replacements at the time of this firefight.

The 4 killed is correct, it goes downhill from there. (Anyone who can add to/correct anything they see here...input is welcome)

1. WIllie B Bradford: (APC 419)
2. Edward M Sternin: (APC 403)
3. Joseph E Perez (APC 412)
4. Melvin R Leavell (APC 412)

I have the General Orders for (purple hearts) the following wounded (Listed Alphabetically):

1. SP4 Bennett
2. PFC Berkley
3. SP4 Bickel
4. SSG Blackburn
5. 1LT Blochberger
6. CPT Braun
7. PFC Burden
8. SGT Cash
9. SP4 Cook
10. SGT Cotter
11. SP4 Craney
12. SP4 Croker (HHC, Flame APC)
13. SP4 Derowitsch
14. CPL Detwiler
15. SP4 Fernandes
16. SP4 Frisbie
17. SGT Gold
18. SP4 Hawkins
19. SGT Johnston
20. SP4 Knapp
21. PFC Miller
22. SP4 Overcasher
23. PFC Pearson
24. SSG Switzer
25. 2LT Tilton
26. PFC Tyler
27. SP4 Walulek
28. PSGT Ward
29. 1LT Bensema (7/13th Arty FO)
30. WO Ogle (Medevac Commander, 498th Med)
31. WO Mancina (Medevac, 498th Med)
32. SP4 Blackwell (Medevac Medic, 498th Med)
33. Unknown name (Medevac Crewchief, 498th Med)
34. PFC Kreider (Shown on GO 1481 as "C" Company...which is most likely an error. "D" Company man Rigo Ordaz remembers Kreider belonging to "D" Company)

I would like to RE-EMPHASIZE that this is not a definative list. These are names I can document SO FAR. If you were wounded at LZ Litts and do not see your name here, it simply means I do not have documentation (yet). Let me know and I will add you in my LZ Litts research. Of Note: I do not have information that would tell me who/if any medics were wounded. Since they were attached to "D" from "HHC", I cannot be sure of their names. I do have 1 man listed from HHC and it has been confirmed that he (James Croker) manned the Flame APC at Litts.

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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Ernie Milito » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:18 am

Our back was to highway 1 on track number 418. Slavas and I were sleeping in the track when it started. We had the hatch down be held up by two gernade boxes so one of the guys chould sleep on it and jumped out. A few seconds later we tuck a rocket through the front, through the motor and hit the radio. The mortar track was to our right and CP was behind just a little to the right. They put the some wounded in the track next to our track to the left. The chopper went down behind us to the right.
When we got there, the people in the refugee camp came out as they always did but this time went back early. One woman said there are enemy out there but no one tuck note.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:19 pm

I WAS SQUAD LEADER OF TRACK 403 FACING WEST ABOUT 8:48 TO 9:00 BY THE CIVILIAN CLOCK. TO MY LEFT (SOUTH) WAS THE BURNING TRACK. TO MY RIGHT (NORTH) ,I THINK, WAS MILITO'S TRACK (LOOK AT QUESTIOMN @ BOTTOM.
PEOPLE IN MY SQUAD :
EDWARD STERNING (Kia) THERE
SSG SWIETSER (SP) 2ND PLT SERGEANT (WIA THERE)
SQUAD LEADER- RIGOBERTO (RIGO) ORDAZ 2ND SQUAD, 2ND PLT
___________SELONIA
RICHARD HELVIE
ARTURO PEREZ
_______ANTILLA (FROM HAWII)


EARNY, WAS THE LT. IN YOUR TRACK? THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE TWO OTHER 2ND PLT TRACKS TO YOUR RIGHT IF YOU WERE NEXT TO ME AND THEN PERHAPS THE MORTARS.
(I HAD WRITTEN A PRETTY EXTENSIVE POST HERE BUT I HIT THE WRONG BUTTON HERE AND HAD TO START ALL OVER AGAIN- WILL WRITE MORE TONIGHT. I'M ALMOST DONE W/ MY MEMOIRS AND WILL SOON POST PICS ON MY IMDB PAGE-http://www.imdb.me/filmmakerordaz
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:59 pm

Great stuff guys. These conversations are like gold to me trying to piece it all together.

From my notes from talking to others, I have the following order going from South to North on the West side of the Perimeter:
419 Bradford & Couch,
412 Perez & Leavell,
403 Rigo, etc.,
343 Mick Hawkins,
then I suspect 418 Millito,
then Johnny Johnston & SGT Ward's APC (Need the number)
Then Possibly Noel Allen's 413 APC ...although there is some confusion as to whether it was here or at the 1 o'clock position.
Finally, Bob Gold's 425...but he moved to the 12 o'clock position in the perimeter to fire illumination rounds.

While we're at it, on the East side of the Perimeter, I have...again from South to North:
George Bell's APC was at 6 o'clock or maybe slightly west of 6 o'clock.
Unknown number APC with Higgins and LT Walsh
Sweiizer's APC (Need number)
SSG Lieneck (Need Number)
Jerry Voulds (Need NUmber)
Dustoff down somewhere East of perimeter here or slightly north of the Voulds APC.
George Borge's APC (Need Number)

In the center were the Command APC where CPT Braun and FO Bensema were injured(Need Number) and the Flame APC (Also need number...although I do not recall them being numbered?)
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:15 pm

I don't have time to really get back into this research right now, but next year...or sometime after the next reunion, I plan on a visit to the National Archives, personnel records center to research the microfilmed morning reports and see if I can find some rosters. I am in dire need of "D" and "HHC" rosters and trying to obtain record copies from St. Louis had been a nightmare in the past when researchers were all but prohibited from going there and doing their own work. They have a new facility now, and the red tape to do research is considerably less intimidating (For example, the old method called for you to get written permission from the Department of the Army to simply begin the process of setting up a research visit!)

Best case scenario would be that there COULD BE a reasonably ledgible roster from the end of February. Company Clerks were required to submit a monthly roster of active personnel at the end of every month. Since "D" Company's clerk obviously had his stuff tpogether by February (Air Medals Issued), I am hopeful the roster is there. The problem could be that it may be be ledgible. Many of the microfilmed images of rosters and morning reports are of such poor quality that they cannot be read.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:25 pm

ON THAT LIST- GOING UP ON WEST SIDE- COUCH A BIT SOUTH WEST- NEXT THE BURNING TRACK -THEN 403 MY TRACK- NEXT IS ERNIE MILITO- THEN 2 MORE 2ND PLT TRACKS - THEN THE MORTARS- MOSTLY THE TRACKS FACING WEST WERE HIT- NOT ALL TRACKS WERE HIT - 20 NOT 19 TRACKS . THE PERIMETER WAS ELONGATED NOT A PERFECT CIRCLE--DELTA COMMANDER'S TRACK WAS 406 AT TAM QUAN- AND PROBABLY THE SAME AT LITTS- 2ND PLT COMMANDER'S TRACK WAS 416 AT TQ- COULD BE SAME BUT NOT SURE AS WE KEPT CHANGING FOR ONE REASON OR OTHER-MOSTLY CAUSE THEY WERE DOWN MECHANICALY- OR DOWN BY THE ENEMY. RIGO
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:28 pm

AS FAR AS I KNOW , THERE WEW NO FLAME TRACKS ATNLITTS. - RIGO
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:20 am

Rigo...I had to dig a little (Pulled out Hawkins' book) but I found proof that I have the order wrong. Thanks for the input. Mick does not mention his platoon anywhere. & I am assuming he falls into that "Heavy Weapons" catagory. He mentions seevral names from his squad in his book and I will scan that page and put it in the Litts folder. Millito (418) was next to you going North and Hawkins (343) after him. Several people confirmed the flame APC & Jim Crocker was wounded. I believe he moved to the east side of the perimeter when the action started. I never got an explanation as to why he didn't use his flame...but am guessing it wouldn't have been wise as the enemy was firing a ton of rocket fire. I have the perimeter in an elogated oval on my draft map. It's shaping up nicely. The 4 1st Platoon tracks would be (South to North) 419, 412, 403 and 418.

I have been furiously getting out emails to family members of our KIAs all day. I am half way through the list and will finish up tomorrow. Maybe later this coming week or the next I might get to Millito's photos and update my draft map of litts. I will email you a copy when it's done.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Russ Roth » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:30 am

Jim,

I don't recall what # track I was on but I am pretty certain it was Jerry Bould's (not Voulds unless this is another person) track. When I first went to the company I rotated riding on them for a short while to get to know the guys. David Jones told me I needed to ride on Jerry's because he would keep me out of trouble. I took his advice and the day Tom Ramey and Larry LeDonne lost their lives we were the point track. Jerry refused to take the same path a second time but our platoon Sgt ordered Larry to go ahead and being the very good soldier he was he followed that order.

At Litts we were facing the highway and the Medevac went down almost straight in front of our track. I remember Lowel Miller, a feller from the 1st Cav we called Hippy (from WA, near Canadian border), probably Jerry and myself on that track. Don't think anyone else was on it.

Hippy was peeking out the big hatch, said the Medevac was coming in and then saw it go down. He grabbed me by the arm yelling c'mon Doc we gotta get those guys out! We bailed out and ran to the chopper. One of the pilots was still strapped in his seat (left seat) and the other feller was sitting on the ground, knees pulled up and his head kind of between them. We couldn't figure out how to get the other one out so I grabbed this guy and asked how to do it. He reached up with a fist and hit the guy in the chest, which released the straps and he fell right on top of us. Somehow we got back inside the perimeter. I was doing Triage that night long before I ever heard that term used years later during my Fire service career.

I could not recall for sure all the track #'s but you confirmed 413 was Noel Allens and I remember 414 and 415 being 3rd platoons also. The 4th track must have been 416, maybe?
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 am

Thanks Russ...I have noted the Boulds error. Whoever gave me the info over the phone...it musy have sounded like a "V" instaead of a "B".
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby harley hawkins » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:34 pm

Great talk. It would be great if everyone would come to the reunion and we could set down and talk about this . We did this one time and talked about Tam Quam what you can learn is price less. Someguys will not talk on the computer but get them in a live talk and they will open up.
The command tract was number 406 on it wa Louis Frisbie, Captain Bruce Braun, sgt. Montabano, Fred B ANTLE AND AN fo COULD HAVE BEEN MORE. I think Braun was wounded pretty bad as Captain Shroeder took over the company the next day I think Louis Fresbie was also wounded there was a lot of guys wounded as here was a lot of shit coming in.
As Jim knows I talk to the commander of the Med vac shot down that night . He might be at the reunion as he has a wedding In Fl. about this time and might stop by. He had a birds eye view of what was going on as he flew around the LZ a few times looking for a place to bring it in. He was shot in the head and the other and 60 some broken bones. While he was in the hospital a captain from our Bat. brought him his flight helmet but he has forgot the name.

Take care hope to see all at Benning


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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:23 am

OOPS I HAD ALREADY POSTED WHEN YOU PUT LAST MESSAGE:

JUST WANTED TO SHOW THE EXACT SPOT WHERE I WAS AT, AT DIFFERENT TIMES AS COMPARED TO EYEWITNESSES FROM THEIR TRACKS. NO I WAS NOT MAD, BUT YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT AT LEAST BY NOW WE SHOULD BE CLEAR OF THE COMMANDER'S TRACK LOCATION AS WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE AND WE HAVE SOME PHOTOS. MY MAIL IS NOT UP -ALL I HAVE IS A PAPER MAP, AND DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO UPLOAD IT. HOWEVER, I'LL DIG IT UP AND POSSIBLY SNAIL MAIL IT.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Jim Sheppard » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:40 am

I'm having a hard time collecting everything and getting it posted. I want to go over the chopper crash with you...as I think you are mistaken about the location. Russ Roth sent an extensive accountof himself and Lowell MIller watching it crash in front of their APC on the east side of the perimeter. (Not far from them, but outside the perimeter). If you look closely at the photo below you can see men and equipment behind this view of the chopper. This is oibvously the next day, but I am sure work was proceeding on retrieving the hulk of the burnt APC. Others have also said the Medevac was outside the perimeter on the east side. SO when I see you so adament about this detail that conflicts...I have to put doubt on this particulkar remembrance. I hope you understand. I am not "taking sides"...quite the contrary, I tend to believe your versions have more accuracy...since you have proven to have a good memory for these things.

I can't thank you enough for your help with all this. If you can get your draft paper map scanned, you could send me that & I will file it...but I think I have a fair idea from what you wrote in the side thread. I'll try to work a bit on this map. I've got a l;ot of corrections now and can "tweak" it & make it more accurate.

One thing I have wondered. I was at LZ Litts with Charlie Company in October. We were there to secure the rough old runway for a fixed wing extraction of a Cav outfit one day. When I bring up this runway (And I have it pictured on one of my maps), most people say they do not recall a runway. I will say it was NOT an improved runway, but definately a long rectangular flat space...obviously man made and graded. I believe your perimeter was just west of the runway & maybe even the perimeter might have been over part of the runway? DO you remember?
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:45 am

Please orient the picture. It was taken facing west. The APC in the background is #412 or what was left of it. That is the western line,and my track was next to it. Right in front of that track going west is the fall off about 3 or 4 ft and then the rice paddy. Further on you can see a big tree- that was the creek bed where we probably got some mortars from. There were phone lines running from the creek bed to the fall off in front of our tracks. Further on you can see the mountains to the west. There were no trees to the East- all you had was the Hwy. 1 and the refugee village. (get a map and check the terrain) I can see how you can get disoriented if you are buttoned up in a track and suddenly somebody grabs you and you get out. Like I mentioned, I was right behind the guy leading the chopper. If I take your assumption for a fact- then we were both outside the perimeter.
Midway between the chopper and the burned track was the commander's track.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:06 am

From the position of the guy taking the picture there was still quite a space to his rear before you got to the East line of tracks. For one thing, it was an over extended perimeter. From the position of the chopper you could hardly see the north line.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby Russ Roth » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:16 am

rigo-ordaz wrote:From the position of the guy taking the picture there was still quite a space to his rear before you got to the East line of tracks. For one thing, it was an over extended perimeter. From the position of the chopper you could hardly see the north line.


That is not correct, Rigo. The East line is behind the chopper.
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Re: QUESTION ON LITTS

Postby rigo-ordaz » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:48 am

From the shadow on the rotor blade you can tell that it was around noon and most tracks had left, I think to Uplift. The clear area behind and to the right of the chopper, that's where the commander's track was at--check Jameson's second picture. I brought the dead and wounded to that spot and was there when the chopper came in from the north, then moved further south because of a hole. My question is this, what would we be doing outside the perimeter flagging down the chopper?
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