QUESTION ON LITTS

[Jim Sheppard]

The attack came from the west (mostly southwest) side of the perimeter. It would make sense that the chopper would attempt to land as far away from the point of attack as possible...hence the East side. Also, the air strip was on that side...so there would have been more open space.

[rigo-ordaz]

JIM SHEPPARD
The attack came from the west (mostly southwest) side of the perimeter. It would make sense that the chopper would attempt to land as far away from the point of attack as possible...hence the East side. Also, the air strip was on that side...so there would have been more open space.

RIGO ORDAZ
I agree that the attack came from the West side;however, by the time the chopper came in there was no shooting that's why I took the dead and wounded (check the Daily Log) to the Commander's area. I happened to be there when the chopper crash -landed East of the command track but west of the East line perimeter. It makes more sense to land inside the perimeter like most insertions. You and I don't know exactly where the landing strip was- that was something you inserted in the map. Believe me there was enough open space inside the perimeter.

[Russ Roth]

JIM SHEPPARD
The attack came from the west (mostly southwest) side of the perimeter. It would make sense that the chopper would attempt to land as far away from the point of attack as possible...hence the East side. Also, the air strip was on that side...so there would have been more open space.

RIGO ORDAZ
I agree that the attack came from the West side;however, by the time the chopper came in there was no shooting that's why I took the dead and wounded (check the Daily Log) to the Commander's area. I happened to be there when the chopper crash -landed East of the command track but west of the East line perimeter. It makes more sense to land inside the perimeter like most insertions. You and I don't know exactly where the landing strip was- that was something you inserted in the map. Believe me there was enough open space inside the perimeter.

Rigo,

With all due respect, you are the only one I have ever heard say it fell inside the perimeter. It was not and did not crash inside and as I recall there was tons of shooting going on before and after it crashed. I believe almost every other guy there will back me up. We were on the east perimeter line and we ran in front of our track to get to the downed chopper. That would be outside the perimeter.

I suspect the reason the pilot chose to attempt a landing there is because there were no rounds coming in from that direction. As a matter of fact there was not one round fired from our track while I was still in it which was until the chopper went down. After that I don't know but I do not think a round was fired from it during the whole battle. Jerry Boulds might be able to answer that. I did handle quite a number of casualties near the rear of our track. I have no count but I would estimate maybe 15-20 but that is just a rough guess.

The landing strip I can't speak to but I do remember we were some distance from highway 1. How far, I couldn't even give an estimate other than it seems like it might have been as much as a couple hundred yards. I don't recall there being a huge amount of area between our track the CP but there might have been enough to get a bird in but it seems to me it would have been very tight.

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

You have that right, there was no shooting from the East line as many on that line were just buttoned up. We needed people on the West side. On the other hand I was outside all the time and could see what was going on. There are times when people think of something and repeat it enough that the thought becomes a reality and convince others. The enemy stopped shooting around 4:45 a.m. that's when we took our dead and wounded to the CP area- There was no shooting when the chopper came in except perhaps one or two enemy, the rest were already evacuating the area. Others could of been influenced by the wordings on awards. I wanted to say something about this a long time ago but didn't cause I knew it would create grief in some. At this time in my age, I just want the truth. I can probably never convince you, but the truth will finally come out. One thing that really pissed me off is that somebody confiscated a side arm from the chopper. I will probably not be responding so much until I can prove it otherwise. Rigo Ordaz, Squad Leader Track # 403

[Jim Sheppard]

The pilot was hit in the helmet by an AK47 round. In fact, a Captain from 50th HQ delivered the pilot's flight helmet to him in the hospital in Qui Nhon the next day. Inside the helmet was the spent AK round. He had it cleaned, buffed and put on a necklace (Dog Tag Chain) and wears it often. Apparently there was still some shooting going on? Albiet, probably not heavy volume? (Charlie often left a few behind to "cover" a major withdrawal...but I am "assuming" this since I was not there)...but it only takes one lucky shot (Or "unlucky" depending on your perspective! ~grin~) to brind down a chopper...it would seem. Also, Rigo, You have not explained your description that the medevac bird did not hit hard?? Maybe time has played tricks on your memory in this case? ...Just asking you to keep an open mind. Can we move on to different details? I am loving the little tidbits I am picking up...such as LT Welch and Milito's "interaction"! Great stuff!

I wish I had more time between now and the reunion to put all this together. I may get something started...a central collection Loose-leaf with copies of all the documentation (Various Map "mock-ups", General Orders, Daily Journals, personal accounts, etc) and bring it to the reunion for the "D" Company guys to browse through and comment. I need to do this with An Bao as well. I have already put together an impressive collection of documentation on Tam Quan...and that will be available at the reunion as well as Tom Kjos (1/12th) who is writting a book about the December battles. The three (An Bao, Tam Quan and Litts) were our heaviest contacts, followed closely by some of the events at An Lao and Tet & Phu My vicinity. I could selfishly include "Charlie Company's Halloween Firefight...and may work up something in the future....sort of an expansion of my story: http://ichiban1.org/pdf/Halloween1967.pdf. That night all happened right in front of me...and I still got some of the details wrong...accepting correction from others. Hell, I was not sure of my new squad leader's name that night!!...I thought it was Colquette, but it was more likely Jim Tilley? (Colquette doesn't remember and Jim Tilley subsequently was KIA in another action)

[harley hawkins]

You guys are having a good discussion. Where the command track was should be easy ask Louis Fresibe as he was on it just ask him. The chopper just as easy. we can ask the commander of the chopper. I agree with Russ there was still firing going on at least were we was at. I remember the chopper going down but we were still taking fire. It was raining that morning so was still very dark or it was were we was at. The commader of the chopper told me and here I go repeating what someone else said that they helped him inside the perimeter . Russ at the reunion you and the commander have alot to talk about I bet he would like to shake your hand.

[rigo-ordaz]

Jim Sheppard,
".it would seem. Also, Rigo, You have not explained your description that the medevac bird did not hit hard?? Maybe time has played tricks on your memory in this case? ...Just asking you to keep an open mind. Can we move on to different details? I am loving the little tidbits I am picking up...such as LT Welch and Milito's "interaction"! Great stuff!"

Rigo
Being a historian and ex journalist, I will also ask you to keep an open mind, research from every angle before you conclude. I have not sent you any further information because I feel you are not taking serious about what I think, except the info you want to keep.
Lt. Welch was an able leader and one of the coolest under combat, he kept a level head while the bullets were flying. So Milito and he got into an argument so what,that happened everywhere- that a track driver disagreed with the platoon leader- that is not history. I'm sure if you contact Lt. Welch, you'll get a different point of view, but still that is not history. (I remember one time 2nd Plt was going in line and one of the tracks took off in a different direction, Lt. Welch got on the phone with the buck sgt. to get back on line. He thought he had seen some weapons. That sgt got sent back to shit burning detail, as he was drinking at that time. I think Milito was the driver.

Might I also remind Ross that he wasn't the only one there, there were many from different platoons including myself and A. Perez who went to extract the crew. The Command track location is in Jamison's picture in the background behind 1st. Plt. track #411 .

[Russ Roth]

Harley,

So the pilot is coming??? That may very likely clear some things up in regard to that portion of the action. I sure hope to meet him. I did send e-mail when you first mentioned contact with him but no reply. I do want to shake his hand too and tell him how incredibly brave I thought the attempt to pick up our wounded was.

I don't know what time the chopper went down. I thought, but may not be correct, the Medevac went down pretty early in the shooting. I know it was still going hot and heavy (MHO) and I know it lasted some time after that point. I did think the shooting kept up pretty heavily until we got near dawn but I was otherwise "engaged" and payed a lot more attention to guys that needed help than the firefight going on around.

[rigo-ordaz]

The shooting ended about 4:45 am,The chopper came in around 5am perhaps they left a couple of shooters just to shoot at the chopper, but there was no shooting after the chopper crashed. , The shooting had stopped so perhaps what you heard was the ammo popping off or other grenades going off in track #412 which was still burning.

[Jim Sheppard]

I'm done with this discussion. I don't need to be criticised for what I am doing. Really? Historian and journalist? PLEASE?! If you can't do this without belittling people and turning the string into a poster for PTSD, I will delete the entire thread.

I'm seriously considering doing that, regardess. This is NOT what we are all about.

[rigo-ordaz]

Perhaps I respond to how anybody talks to me- Anybody would be insulted if they were told that time is playing tricks with their memory. check back all your posts. Yes I am a historian appointed by the County judge to the Historical Commission here, writing a history book. When I came back, went to a university and studied journalism and have worked for several dailies. I don't want to continue with my resume, but you did put a question mark after journalist.
My last post was very level and to the point, my quest to get to the truth has ruffled feathers which was not my intention, and for that I am sorry. My e mail is rigordaz@juno.com for anybody that wants to continue this discussion in case this thread gets wiped out. I'll say one thing though- there was a lot of response to it. Rigo Ordaz

[Russ Roth]

Perhaps I respond to how anybody talks to me- Anybody would be insulted if they were told that time is playing tricks with their memory. check back all your posts. Yes I am a historian appointed by the County judge to the Historical Commission here, writing a history book. When I came back, went to a university and studied journalism and have worked for several dailies. I don't want to continue with my resume, but you did put a question mark after journalist.
My last post was very level and to the point, my quest to get to the truth has ruffled feathers which was not my intention, and for that I am sorry. My e mail is rigordaz@juno.com for anybody that wants to continue this discussion in case this thread gets wiped out. I'll say one thing though- there was a lot of response to it. Rigo Ordaz

Rigo,

With all due respect to you, Jim has done a TREMENDOUS amount of work and research for all of us. I don't want to see that jeopardized.

I can't speak with certainty about some things that went on in any of the actions I was a part of but some things I can. I can about where the medevac went down and there is no question it landed nearly in front of our track outside the perimeter. I can't say with certainty how far it was but it did not seem too far at the time. I can't say with certainty at what point in the battle it went down but I thought it was fairly early. I can say with some certainty the battle was still going on for at least some period of time after it went down. How much longer I can't say.

This is just my thoughts and observations and I don't mean it as a personal attack. I believe some of the issue is you recall something a certain way and though others say it was different there is no possibility you could be mistaken, recall it differently or saw it in a different way. One conclusion that has come out of our discussions @ the reunions is that even though we may have been within 10' of each other in a battle what each of us may see can differ. This comes from many discussions about numerous actions not just Litts.

I would invite you to attend this next one. As others will tell you, it very much can make a big difference in your present life even this many years later. I would like to meet you and believe you could and would add much to our history of this battle. No one person has it all or has it all right but together I think we can come up with a lot of reasonably accurate information about how and what happened at different points during this very tough action. Remember we shared things that only a few share in this life and even though as a professional Firefighter we depend on each other in life threatening situations at times and work as a close knit team it is not exactly the same thing in my experience. And that includes nearly 10 years as a member of a high angle rope rescue team which is even more dependent on each crewman.

It is not nor has ever been lost on me the guys on the portions of the perimeter that took the brunt of the attack stood very bravely in the face of some pretty withering incoming. Many of your brave actions kept us from much further harm.

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

I know Jim has done a tremendous job, there is no question about it. At this particular time, though, we are just dealing with a question about Litts. You and I and possibly more have a different point of view. When I presented my viewpoint I knew it wasn't going to be popular and I knew it was going to be filled with controversy. I still went ahead. We had some problems and we did some mistakes thinking that Litts was a very secure area, as we had stayed there before. We had come under 4th Infantry which was stationed @ LZ English and above. Our link with them came through Uplift TOC then to Lz English then to Col. Forrester wherever he was for an ok on many things. Sometimes Forrester was at Pleiku or other parts where he could not be found to ok Arty or choppers. Anyway, our most important radios were damaged in the initial rounds they knew what they were doing. Lane Field pilots did not want to fly because of a low ceiling. There is no question that the chopper pilots that came in were very courageous, and possibly under advice not to fly.
We just disagree on a couple of points 1. The chopper location 2. when the shooting stopped.
We were at different locations, hence , different viewpoints. You were on the East line of tracks belonging to 3rd Plt. I was on the Westside tracks belonging to 2nd Plt and in track # 403. Physically you were inside one of your tracks. I slept outside my track that night because the platoon Sgt (Sweitzer) was in my track. When the shooting started I ran to my track. Sternin, the driver was killed by a rocket, and SSG Sweitzer was wounded by another rocket as he got on the Fifty which also messed up the 60. Arturo Perez had the other 60 on the right side of the track. I remained outside the track all the time and kept on firing and throwing grenades. ( I will write more on this later)
Anyway, I stayed outside when we picked up the guys from track #412 stayed outside when we went to CP area to take the wounded so I had the advantage of seeing everything from an outside point of view.
Shooting had stopped with just a few of our guys shooting out. I don't know if you have the daily log which summerizes actions as they were being called in by Lt. Schroeder Lt. Blochburger or somebody else, this I don't know. RO

[Russ Roth]

I was outside the track sleeping when it started, next to Lowell Miller. In fact he grabbed me and hollered something about being hit as I heard explosions. We were in the track until the Medevac went down.

A couple funny things happened during the beginning of the whole thing. Lowell and I both had our boots off and put them on inside the track only they didn't fit just right. We each had one wrong boot but figured it out pretty fast. A while later the man door starts to open and I'm sitting right next to it. I think we have been overrun and I quickly think I'm taking this guy by the throat as he is going to throw a shape charge in here. As it fully opens I see it is Lt. Flakne in his brand new fatigues and I grab the side of door frame to keep from taking him on. I've talked with him a couple times the last few years and I probably need to tell him about how close he came to being choked.

As far as the shooting stop, I really have no idea as I was very busy with wounded and did not pay attention to much else for quite some time. As I mentioned in a prior post I think we all have "snapshots" of certain very specific things that happened during these battles. One for me is the chopper incident and as I also mentioned there is no question it fell outside.

I just had a thought about the casualty thing also. Actually 2. I don't know if the casualties I handled were the ones you were saying were @ where you are calling the CP or not or if there were 2 areas with them being taken care of. I need to chat with Robert about this. Rigo, you need to come the the reunion to remind me about this part! I mention this because (this is the other) there was some distance between our track and the CP but I cannot say how much but it does not seem like it would have been enough to get a bird in. Not sure about that though.

I did start handling casualties after we were at the medevac. I think the first one I looked at must have been Sternin since he was half out of the drivers hatch in a track backed inside the perimeter sort of. It looked like an RPG had come in the corner where he sat. Hippie and I pulled him out, laid him on the ground and I checked his caratoid. I felt one pulse and then no more. I started feeling his chest and there was not much there. Hippie says " I thought for a minute you were going to do something stupid.'" I told him no, I just wanted to make sure he was gone.

I also thought the 4th Infantry was based out of Pleiku. I know it was earlier but that may have changed by then. I remember we did not seem to get much support from them.

Rigo, you need to come to the reunion. It would be very beneficial for you, for the history of this and other battles and we could get some more information straightened out maybe.

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

All I know is that somebody was taking care of the wounded in the commander's area as I saw Cpt Braun bandaged. I did not know there was another area, as I was told the chopper was coming in to the CP area. We waited there and saw a guy guiding the chopper in. When it crashed I saw a pilot there with a gash in his head, but I thought that it was because of the crash. By this time there was a group of us getting the crew out.
Not the whole 4th Div was in our area, only the 3rd Brigade. I think the rest were at Pleiku. Our Bravo Company was in several missions with them, but they kept themselves north of the Bong Son river. Col. Forrester was their commander.
There is no point hashing back and forth as far as what I think or what you think,perhaps when we get more proof ie documents, photos, maps, etc.
There are several things that play with our memory. The first is of course
Alzheimer or the beginning of it.
A big traumatic hit in the head.
Alcohol in large amounts
Drugs
Actions under duress, high adrenalin, fear etc.
Blocking some action by doing something else-
of course sometimes mixed with a long elapsed time.

[Jim Sheppard]

I came across this note that Flame Platoon Member Jim Crocker sent to Dennis Driscoll in 2004.

This was buried in my LZ Litts folder, which I pulled out to begin some badly needed consolidating and updating. I will be working on developing my research over the next few weeks. I hope to have everything updated and prepared for the reunion so the attending "D" company guys can see some fruit for all their input as well as offer more correction and detail.

I am "calming down" from some of the negative feeling I developed while trying to pull this all together via our web site message board. Some, although espousing being open minded and having a working knowledge of "research"....seem, in reality...quick to correct every tidbit they see as flawed. Fortunately, most of you do not have these "ego issues" and I am grateful for your open-minded input.

I am posting this letter, nearly "verbatim". It speaks to some of the details of this contact on March 9th. It speaks for itself....and is more evidence of what a majority understand as some simple facts of the events I am attempting to chronicle.

"Dennis,

Sgt. David Erick came to me and said he needed some time in the field. Since I had a lot of combat experience by that time and Erick and I were friends, he wanted to pair with me on the Flame Track. Both of us were TC's but since Erick out ranked me I decided to go as driver. I informed him Delta Company was going on patrol and we could go out with them if we cleared it with SSgt. Lee (our boss). So, off we went.

After some time on patrol with Delta Co., we arrived at LZ Litts to camp for the night. I set up our Track behind a small hedge row behind one of the line tracks on the south side of the perimeter. We ( Flame Platoon) believed it to be suicide to put our track on the line and we wanted to be away from others in case we get hit for obvious reasons. Also we would be able to more easily move to the side needed should the Company get attacked.

Late that night I was awakened by a large explosion. As it turned out the Track we parked behind got hit with a RPG. Immediately Erick and I prepared for combat with our M16s. I noticed the combat was fierce on the west side of the perimeter and as the fighting went on other Tracks were moving over to the west side of the perimeter to help with the fight, including the line Track on our left. That Track checked with me before they left as I said we could handle it. I had plenty of M 16 ammo and noticed VC coming out of the woods directly to the south of me. Figuring the VC were probing us, I fired and hit (several times) a VC moving towards me from those woods. As there seemed to be more VC in the woods I kept firing always looking for fresh targets. Erick could not help me as his gun had jammed and could not fix it. We were saving the flame thrower in case we were called upon. Explosions were all around us from RPG and mortar fire and that Track that got hit with the RPG kept blowing up all night. Then, I felt something very hot hit me in the face. From what, I was never sure. A piece of jagged metal had hit me in the face and stuck there. There was no blood. Well, not until I pulled it out later. I figured that was it for me and told Erick I was hit. Moments later, I realized I was okay and shot another VC who had entered our perimeter. Later as I saw no more movement from the woods in front of me someone in a track to the east of my spot was firing a M60. I figured ( I hoped anyway) the VC had given up probing us. During the battle a Dust-Off was hovering to the east of me and I thought to myself if he tries to land he will never make it out of here. This place was just too hot. But the Dust Off WAS trying to land and I saw bullets hitting it especially around the engine. Then the Dust Off turned upside down and hit the ground hard sending torn off parts flying past my head. I continued to fight until daylight when the battle was finally over. I felt bad for the guy who was killed in the Track in front of us as no one knew who he was. Just a new guy. That's all they knew.

Jim Croker
Flame Platoon"

By the way, the Daily Staff Journal for the 3rd Brigade, 4th Inf Div reads that the medevac chopper was reported down 75 meters East of the perimeter. (DJ 9Mar68 Line 12)

My work is made difficult, emotionally, when criticisms and finger pointing take place. I am attempting to pull together collective memories, often from totally different battle perspectives....and coordinate them into an account that will be as close to accurate as possible.

Will it be perfect? NO.

Short of having complete audio and video record of the account in question, this can never happen. We have only limited documentation and our individual memories as "meat" for this meal.
Fortunately, most of you understand this. I am uplifted by the support I receive from our steadfast Association Membership...who witness my physical archives at each reunion.

After our 2009 reunion, I attempted to load a video I took of our Archives room. I realize now the file size was entirely too large, and I have compressed the format into something that will work better:

http://ichiban1.org/media/Archives2.wmv

As I watch this, I am realizing the vast amount of documentation I have added since I took this video! The Large Plastic File containers shown on the lengthwise table are full of hard copy documents from the Battalion's 3+ years in Vietnam.

Time to get back to work!

[Ernie Milito]

Lits get off the chopper that night. If we all had this much time on our hands we would have been playing cards and not fighting for our lives. Jim your doing a great job trying to put hell on paper..

[rigo-ordaz]

Ha Ha, good play on words Ernie. I understand where you're coming from. Yes, a lot of us have more time now to rehash the events now that we are retired. Just responding to new material presented by Jim,which states things through the eyes of the flame track. We've talked about other subjects pertaining to Litts on this thread also. We must remember the rights we went to fight for, and one of them is Freedom of Speech. It is apparent that the post you are referring to has been deleted.

[Ernie Milito]

Your correct on that! We need to remember that we are Brothers to the end.

[rigo-ordaz]

Some things cleared up for me. For one thing I thought both pictures of burning tracks (Russ Roth pictures) were the same one #412. Upon checking and rechecking it seems like the second picture is totally a different track. It could be the track that Croker tells about in his account hit by a rocket and also burning. Anyway it is facing south and it is not #412. Now, the tracks in the first platoon were #410 (The Fly) #411 (In Jamison"s pictures) #419 (Jerry Couch) and #412 (facing west-burned)
Sometimes we have to go back and re check the same things to see what was missed. Some people do not have the patience for this and soon get bored with repeated stuff.
I was wrong in saying that there were no flame tracks at Litts, because I didn't see any. Some correspondence I had with Jerry Couch some time back he mentions also not seeing a flame track, and he was closer to it in the line.
Reading again Louis Friesby's account and Crocker's account plus using Jamison's picture as a guide one thing cleared up for me. When I got to the commander's area I saw Cpt. Braun sitting in the back of a track with the ramp down. The back of the track where he was sitting was facing West;however, in Jamison's picture the commander"s track the back is to the East. Till I read Louis' account that the FO had a track also there and it was facing the other way. So Cpt Braun was sitting in the back of the FO track and not his own #406. This might seem insignificant to others but cleared up a lot to me. Also the fact that he was sitting there with the ramp down could also show that the shooting had died down. Last entry in the Daily Log--"1/50 RPTS CONTACT BROKE AT 4:45"
One thing in Crocker's (flame track) account is that he had pieces of the chopper flying by his head which would mean he was close enough to the crash and not 75 meter on the other side of the East perimeter
Another thing I found is that Heavy Mortars track #343 was not at Litts it was #423 Mickey 1, which got hit with two rockets in the engine compartment and later it was replaced by #343 Mickey 2 or "Thelma" But Mick Hawkins knows all about this.
I place this info here in the hope that others might remember more things and post them here,as I know that digging stuff up or remembering takes a long time. Sometimes a little incident jars the memory into remembering. Anyway, what I do is not ego driven, and yes sometimes I'm a bit abrasive and stressing-but I mean no harm. So Jim and Russ and/or others I humbly offer my apologies. "Play The Game"
http://www.imdb.me/filmmakerordaz