QUESTION ON LITTS

[rigo-ordaz]

Mick, George was around 2nd Plt for a while that,s why I thought he was with us but you could be right, I didn,t see him for some time but I thought he was in one of the other tracks. Check Ernie Milito,s pictures he,s in there.
From what I read Lt. Driscoll was wounded when a 105 round hit his track in the first days of Tam Quan, but I thought it was a 1st Plt apc. Has anybody talked to him recently?
Anyway did you check the pictures I mentioned, was that Litts Some pe'ople might ask why all the questions on Litts. Out of all the actions we had in Nam this is the least documented , and most confusing. Just now are we getting the perimeter identified.

[wfm7]

Russ - Thank-you for your previous post. While I have no dog in the fight concerning Litts I do see a reoccurring pattern to each and every post submitted by Rigo. I don't contribute much to the message board but I do enjoy reading the post on a daily basis to understand what others have and are experiencing. Certain ones (singular) seem to promote a private agenda for some bizarre reason. Because they have some belief of knowing all things 1/50th and want to influence history to the most minute detail they pick away at others recollections until they conform to theirs. I realize that most of us see through this and feel that its not a big deal in the bigger scheme of things and you'd be right. What becomes problematic is seeing him quoted (as in the VFW magazine article on Tam Quan) where his distorted twisted view of things now becomes fact. Fortunately, I'm sure they only selected but a few comments from the tomes submitted. I'll will continue to watch as statements from the preceding 2 post play out to become fact like, 'the way I understand it', 'they both appear to be taken at the same time and place'. ' If these pictures', 'On Jamison's picture you can see the little hedgerow'. Really? you can identify a specific hedgerow and establish exactly where they are? This message board has typically been informative, considerate, and respectful in the absence of one particular postee. Why my post? Because years ago I had this self proclaimed 'Historian' tell me what happened on Dec 10th and what mistakes where made by B Co. I was there, he wasn't but in his mind his opinion superseded my first hand experiences. Maybe he'd like to post here what mistakes were made by B Co on that day. Then we all might get a clear picture of the vile, sick mentality at work here. On a side note, Rigo refers to himself as Sgt. Ordaz on another site. I understand he may have been a squad leader but these weren't always E-5. In a picture which can no longer be found he is shown receiving a bronze star stateside as a Sp4. Knowing how he likes to correct history to conform to his facts I was curious if his reasoning might have led him to a self-promotion? or perhaps he wasn't appreciated for his military insights and busted.

[Jim Sheppard]

While I endorse the post of wfm7, I will likely have to remove it. I am leaving it in place temporarily since it very accurately described what happens within this thread when there are differences with our comrade Rigo. The Thread discussion ended back in April when Rigo insisted the Helicopter crashed INSIDE of the perimeter. Even when all others described the event as happening outside of the encirclement, Rigo challenged each and every posted description that did not conform to his own view. Even the pilot of the Helicopter confirmed where he crashed...yet Rigo continues to deny the event...possibly by simply ignoring it. The result of this for me is that I can no longer trust the judgement that has brought so many other valid remembrances to the table in many discussions. I can also no longer allow the constant badgering of any opposing view.

Regardless, even this post by myself will be removed.

It is frustrating to try to collect information when one source will not bend to the recollections of the majority.

I am away involved with Family Business this weekend. I will be travelling to Chicago tomorrow...approximately 355 miles out of my way to try to track down a photo of one of our men killed in action. When this crap develops, it deeply challenges my attempts over the years to empathize with our brother Rigo's obvious "problems" interacting with others...even those who genuinely care for him...and waiting for the inevitable response is not fun....and I suspect I will have to take some time during my trip to simply delete all the offending posts. My wife is already upset with me taking time to post this when I am needed by the family at the present...so I can not take time to edit this first draft. Please forgive any misspellings or errors.

I hold the authority to govern our Message Board. While I have not done so, I may impose a Ban on Rigo .for a period of time if the discussion takes on adversarial and malignant discussion. Also, in the interest of allowing more input into these discussions, we might begin taking inventory of who holds membership in the Association that pays for the website. It often seems as though the worst detractors are not even current dues paying members...and we could impose bans based on membership...although I personally am against such a move.

In the end, I feel, once again, a rift developing between one and the majority...and a negative taste is being expressed to me,privately and openly, by several members.

I am not here to say we are all "Saints", but in my 14+ years being involved as first Historian and secondly as Webmaster, we are 99% positive and only 1% negative in how we appear via our website.

Remember, there are scores of men who are still "lurking" in the background. They have heard our claims that reunions have been a blessing for those of us with severe psychological difficulties and/or suppressed memories and thoughts...fears and phobias...many of which our core membership has experienced fade away with years of participation and positive interaction with our active participating membership.

I have tried to be a peacemaker...also tried to stay as inactive in the discussion as possible, but with the best interests of men out there who stand to benefit by possible future membership in view, I will take whatever measures I deem necessary to insure that we hold civil discussions going forward.

I am your elected historian...always open to being replaced if the membership is unhappy with my performance. My personal investments of years spent in document gathering, website improvement, etc,etc...have been, for the most part, a wonderful experience.

[wfm7]

Jim,
Please, by all means feel free to delete my post. Actually, I had attempted to do so this morning and actually thought I had done so. My apologies to all who I've unintentionally impacted negatively. I was not pleased with my inability to control myself and do not want to play a part in disrupting the peace of this association. All of the efforts which have gone into making this a web site without equal must also include taking whatever actions are necessary to preserve all the good names of those who can't tell their stories. While ones may consider this censorship of their rights as free speech in this PC world of ours there are examples everywhere where this should not be license to offend at will. The world needs a good dose of practicality. This holds true to my use of speech also. I will not excuse myself from the consequences of my actions but will accept whatever is in the best interest of this site. Thank-you Jim, for all your tireless work and I can only imagine your endless frustrations. To you especially I would like to apologize. Make sure your wife understands that you are deeply appreciated by the many who visit this site.

[rigo-ordaz]

I hadn,t answered because I was having a hard time logging in
If you noticed, I asked WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS,in my post. My intention is to get the
perimeter at Litts sorted out. Some will probably say that we are making
progress on this. I don,t know everything being a lowly Sp4 like you say. Perhaps I don,t
express myself right and that is what pisses people off, but personally I have no animosity twords anybody.
I try to be as accurate as I can . I can see now I had no right to write about your company as I was not there. What I wrote or expressed on Tam Quan Battle was something that was written already that your company at Troung Lam 1 had split up and one part was unable to help the other,
that was already written. Nothing twisted about that.
On the other hand, I was a squad leader for over six months, but was not promoted and I
will tell you why. When I arrived to 1/50 at Uplift the First Sgt. wanted to keep me
there on a detail building half tents. I wanted to go to the field
at that time he told me Youre going to the Woods and added They are going to bring
me back in two weeks in a body bag. I answered fine ,but you can be hurt here too. At
hearing this he really got pissed off, I didn,t realize it but SSGt Leo Le Bouf was there
and now told me how everything happened. The First Sgt never
forgot this and never promoted me and kept me out in the field
I came in with training at the First Non Commissioned Officers Academy at Ft. Knox,
Kentucky and was a quad Leader in AIT there. I excelled in everything but mostly in
day/night Navigation and map Reading.
The guys didn.t know I was a Spec 4 and kept calling me Sgt.
That picture was taken at the Presidio of San Francisco, and I was a Sgt. E 5 by then but
they were Reading the Gen. Orders when I was given the Bronze Star when I was a Spec 4. So all that time I kept doing my job , never complaining.
On the other hand I found out in Basic Training I didn,t have to go to Vietnam, being
an orphan my father having died when I was one year old and my mother at that time was
over 60 years old, sick and I was the sole supporter. I Heard what President Kennedy
said and I went willingly. I was never busted (demoted) and I followed orders and did my job.
One last thought, sometimes I,m a bit aggresive in presenting my viewpoint but that doesn,t mean I,m right
all the time. I also want the best for the 1/50 and the message board.

[Jim Sheppard]

I think we can all move on. I don't think Rigo needs to defend himself...even though we were pretty harsh on him. I for one owe an apology. Rigo seems to understand that he pushes buttons sometimes. Maybe we can build a better relationship on that understanding. He has shown with this reply that he is sincerely interested in the discussion continuing. I agree the perimeter at Litts seems to be making progress. I don't think it will ever be perfect, but it will be closer than any other engagement in our Vietnam history...and that is a compliment to all of you "D" Company men who have contributed here and at Fort Benning.

[harley hawkins]

I talked to Danny Scott this morning . He was no help on APC numbers at all. I also sent George Borges a e-mail to see if he remembers what APC he was on and make sure I understood him about location. I guess Noel Allens APC would have been the start of recon or 1st or 2nd PLT. I do not remember which PLT recon was.


Harley Mick Hawkins

[rigo-ordaz]

According to your message some time back, you said that Danny Scott was in Ward,s track and what we kind of figured out that Ward,s track was 424.

Noel Allen,s track 413 was next to Gold(NorthEast corner), that was the beginning of the 3rd Platoon,Russ should know more on this.
He is in the picture of track 411 which belonged to the First Pltn. I don,t think there was an official Recon Plt. at that time, It was folded into First Pltn. Perhaps they all came together from different tracks for the picture .
I have written to Lt. Blochberger to ask him where he was on the perimeter. and also wrote to Jamison.

[harley hawkins]

Was it 3nd plt recon worked as I couldn.t remember. Who took Driscol place after he was wounded? Do you have Lt. Blochberger address? Last I knew he was sick and had moved to AZ. I would like to talk to him . Yes 424 was Ward I thought Danny might remember the APC between us like me he didn't think there was one, but when your fighting you don,t see much but what,s in front of you and the other numbers he didn,t know. I think Lt. Blochberger was to the right of Gold and could have been off line. Gold has told me but I forgot. I will call him before long.

Mick Hawkins

[rigo-ordaz]

Mick, got busy on Sunday. From what I gathered from input from others is that Noel Allen was in the 3rd Plt. and the Plt. leader was Lt. Flackne. I really don,t know who took over after Lt. Driscoll got wounded, but I,ll check. So far we know the tracks from the 3rd Pltn. were 413, 414, and 415 but we don,t have a number for the fourth track. I hope others from the 3rd Plt. will chime in with some info. We have one number missing from the 2nd Plt. We kept on changing tracks that I can.t remember.
No answer from Lt. Blochberger or Jamison yet. He might not be able answer if he is sick like you mentioned. I always thought Blochberger was on the southern side.
There is so Little information out there. I did a google search and found some pictures of LZ Litts when it was a dirt air strip for the Caribous.
We should have done this a long time ago, but still we have some time. The reason we are doing this on the message board is so others can see it and input their info.

[harley hawkins]

weapons plt had two plt leaders with us at Litts. Lt. Charles Liton ( not sure of spelling ) and Lt. John Blochberger. Liton was taking over and I guess Blochberger just hadn't gone yet or maybe he was training Charles I do not know and I do not know if they were on the same APC but I do not think they were. I'm pretty sure Lt. Liton was on the north side. I know Bob Gold knew were Blochberger was at . I will call him.

mick hawkins

[Russ Roth]

I can add some to this concerning 3rd platoon. Recon was never mentioned in regard to 3rd during my time there. Prior to that I have no idea.

At the reunion I asked Pete directly how many medics were in D company as I only recalled myself, Robert and Tony. His answer was there were only 3 and he never mentioned being with Delta again after Robert and I replaced him and Provencher. That seems to shoot Rigos thoughts on Pete being @ Litts the night before although it is very possible he came out with chow and mail or something like that and I just did not see him. He said he and Rigo were very good friends. I feel reasonably certain he did not move into Litts with us but I would believe Pete if he said he was there. He did mention going to the field once or twice after he was pulled but only mentioned other companies.

I can confirm without doubt Lt. Larry Flakne was 3rd platoon leader at Litts. He was also so new (couple days maybe?) his fatigues were brand new green unlike the faded ones the rest of us had. I remember the Lt when I came to 3rd but cannot recall his name. He was not so tall, reddish blond hair and glasses. I can picture what he looked like quite clearly but no name comes to mind.

Noel and I and the others all tried to recall the 3rd track # for 3rd platoon but that turned into a fail. I don't have any pictures to help either.

I recall George Borges talking about being part of 2nd platoon a few times. Not sure if he meant the was always with them or not.

Rigo mentions a track # with perhaps some fellas that were not in it. Brings to mind a picture I have with Melrose, myself and a couple A company guys. Not sure how that occurred but it did since I have it.

HTH

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

Russ You are right about 3d Plt. not being associated with Recon Plt. Actually the Recon Plt was folded into the First Plt of Delta Co.

It is a possibility that Tovar came in with the Mail and Chow truck with the First Sgt. I didn,t see him before except for those 45 min. to an hour and that,s when I snapped that picture. For sure he wasn,t there after that and possibly went back with the 1st. Sgt. group. I didn,t say he was there during the night just in the afternoon of the 8th for a while.
George Borges could have been a mechanic like Mick says but I always saw him hanging around 2nd Plt. Whoever can contact George, he could clear it up.
On the last peragraph I don,t know what track number you are referring to. Is it track 411?

[Russ Roth]

It is a possibility that Tovar came in with the Mail and Chow truck with the First Sgt. I didn,t see him before except for those 45 min. to an hour and that,s when I snapped that picture. For sure he wasn,t there after that and possibly went back with the 1st. Sgt. group. I didn,t say he was there during the night just in the afternoon of the 8th for a while.

I never thought you were saying he was there during the battle, only that he was there the evening before and I assumed you meant he had been out with us. My fault for assumning.

George Borges could have been a mechanic like Mick says but I always saw him hanging around 2nd Plt. Whoever can contact George, he could clear it up.

George has told me he had a mechanic MOS and that's the reason he was not and cannot to this day be awarded a CIB although many of us could and would attest that he was there in combat with us. Stinks I think.

On the last peragraph I don,t know what track number you are referring to. Is it track 411?

Not talking about a track #. Was just pointing out I had a picture with guys in it that were not any of us on the track pictured AFAIK and saying this can happen as I thought you were mentioning. Not only that but we were not even all in the same company.

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

Thanks Russ. About George I always thought he was 11C, 11D or 11B cause like you say he was out there with us a lot. Perhaps if he could of gotten a secondary MOS he could get his CIB, There was a chaplain in the 1st Cav named Newby that got awarded the CIB. I hope. even now, something could be done for George.

We got a lot of people from A,B, and C companies along with tracks when D Co. was forming, Could that be it? There was once or twice we operated alongside A company during Tet.

Mick, did you talk to Gold about Lt. Blochburger? I keep checking the e mail, nothing yet.

[Russ Roth]

I would need to check for sure with George but as I recall he mentioned his MOS was as a mechanic and since it is not a combat MOS he could not get the CIB. I don't think he's the only one. I think this is what he was saying but I would not take that as fact without checking with someone more knowledgeable about it.

If you are referring to the picture I mentioned I never met the A company guys it until I was with them after may 5 so that takes care of that issue.

RR

[harley hawkins]

an Mickey Talked to Bob Gold a few minutes ago. He thought Lt. Blochberger was two APC away from him on the west side. Lt. Tilton was with Bob than Higgins than Ward than George Borges than Mickey #1. Bob did remember them changing some of our APC to 800 numbers but this was will after Litts and he said Sgt Kerr had told him why but he forgot.

Mick Hawkins

[Russ Roth]

I thought it was not too long after Litts the #'s and stars were painted out or was that later?

[harley hawkins]

Oh I think it was much later Russ. I have never said anything,but I remember mickey 1 which was mickey 2 we were in Uplift and some of the APC had 800 numbers not all of them, If you look real close you can see 823 was 323 at one time. I don't think they ever told us why and we really didn't care. I bet George Borges might know

Mick Hawkins

[gquint113]

Hi Guys.....

While I don't know jack about the Litts fight aside from being on the first track in after daylight, I may be able to help out with the track numbering.

Originally Alpha was 100 series, Bravo, 200's, Charlie 300's Delta 400's and HHC 500's...
When we went to the 173 in April 68, 173 command decided we could fool our crafty lil opponents by changing our numbers therefore making them think we was somebody else and not the same ole guys they'd been tangling with for the past six months..... Geez... why didn't I think of that... At any rate Alpha became 600's, Bravo 700's, Charlie should have been 800's and Delta 900's, HHC 000's.

The original system for Alpha Command was 101, first platoon first squad was 111, second squad 112 etc. second platoon first squad 121, second squad 122 etc.
Alpha had 101, 111,112,113,114,121,122,123,124,131,132,133,134,141,142,143,144.... Alpha, bravo and Charlie were all numbered similarly... Delta was an exception in that when it was formed it drew many of it's PC's from HHC so they kept the last two digits that were already on the PC and the first number was changed to a 4... Hense Gold was on 425 which originally came out of HHC 4.2's. Delta was the only company that had the 4.2... The rest of us had 81's.

Great exchange going... Keep it up

Q