LITTS MAP

[rigo-ordaz]

AFTER MY SIXTH ATTEMPT TO ANSWER YOUR E- MAIL, I'M RETURNING TO THE BOARD-
JIM

(* WHEN I MENTION 'THAT I WAS THERE, I DON'T MEAN ONLY AT LITTS- I WAS PHYSICALLY THERE AT THAT EXACT SPOT AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER OF THE BATTLE)

I KNOW IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, BUT THERE ARE SOME MAJOR FLAWS IN THE MAP-I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GETTING YOUR INFORMATION-BUT ERRORS LIKE THIS JUST CONFUSES EVERYTHING AND DOES NOT GIVE CREDIT TO HISTORICAL RESEARCH. (I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS TYPE OF MAP FOR MORE THAN 25 YRS.)

1. THE COMMAND TRACK WAS NOT TO THE NORTH AS YOU HAVE IT IN THE MAP. IT WAS BASICALLY ORIENTED EAST OF THE BURNING TRACK #412, OR AND SOUTHEAST OF MY POSITION #403 IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FORMATION, OF COURSE. RIGHT WHERE YOU PLACED THE ZIPPO (*I WAS THERE)

2. TRACKS # 419 AND #412 BELONGED TO THE 1ST.PLATOON - THAT MEANS THERE WERE 2 MORE 1ST PLT. TRACKS ON THE SOUTH (ONE OF THEM WAS #411 "THE FLY) THERE WERE AT LEAST 2 OTHER TRACKS ON THE SOUTH LINE BESIDES THE 1ST PLT. TRACKS,, PERHAPS BLOCHBERGER'S TRACK. (SO THIS MAKES THE MAP NOT SO MUCH OBLONG.)
3. ALL 2ND PLATOON TRACKS WERE FACING WEST. STARTING WITH MY TRACK #403 JUST NORTH OF THE BURNING TRACK. THEN #418 NORTH OF MINE, ERNIE MILITO I THINK WAS THE DRIVER AND SLAZAS ON THE 50. THEN WE HAD TWO MORE TRACKS AND ONE OF THEM COULD HAVE BEEN #416 WITH THE PLT. LEADER LT. WELCH. THEN PERHAPS HAWKINS TRACK. I SAY PERHAPS BECAUSE I WAS NOT THERE.
UNLESS THERE WERE TWO SSG SWIETZER's THIS ONE WAS OUR PLT. SGT AND WAS WOUNDED IN MY TRACK #403
I POSTED IT BEFORE BUT NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

4. CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF AND SOME GEN.ORDERS WORDINGS- THE MEDEVAC HELICOPTER CRASHED A BIT SOUTH EAST OF THE COMMAND TRACK AND NOT OUTSIDE THE PERIMETER> (* I WAS THERE) I WAS ABOUT 25 FEET SOUTH BEHIND THE GUY BRINGING HIM IN) THE CHOPPER WAS ABOUT TO LAND ON A HOLE ON ONE OF THE SKIDS- HE PICKED UP ANYWHERE FROM 4 TO 6 FT. MOVED A BIT FORWARD AND THERE HE CRACHED. I DON'T SEE HOW ANYBODY IN CRASH GETTING 60 BROKEN BONES- WHEN IT CRASHED A BUNCH OF US RUSHED TO THE CHOPPER TO HELP THEM OUT. WE WERE CLOSE BUT NOT OUTSIDE THE PERIMETER. (*I WAS THERE).

I WAS IN THE COMMAND TRACK AREA AT ONE TIME AND I DON'T REMEMBER A ZIPPO THERE- WE STARTED LOSING THEM SINCE TAM QUAN. (*I WAS THERE)
ANYWAY WE HAD 20 TRACKS AND IF ZIPPO WAS THERE, THEN WE HAD 21.

THE WAY I HAVE MY MAP- IT IS 6 TRACKS ON THE WEST SIDE AND 6 TRACKS ON THE EAST SIDE AND FOUR TRACKS ON THE NORTH SIDE AND 4 TRACKS ON THE SOUTH SIDE MAKING A TOTAL OF TWENTY TRACKS PLUS THE COMMANDER'S TRACK.
THIS MAKES IT MORE LIKE A RECTANGLE AND NOT SO MUCH AN OBLONG SHAPE FORMATION. RIGO ORDAZ

[harley hawkins]

Sounds good to me. I hope the Commander of the chopper is at the reunion he should be able to help us out some with the location of his chopper. I do not know as I remember it going down but we were pretty busy at the time.
The commander was shot in the head . The 60 bones I do not know about as that was told to me and I have no reason so far not to believe it. Louis Fresibe would be the one to ask about the location of the command track as he was on it. I have a picture somewere if I can find it. It is not March 9th 1968 but is Litts. It might help with track numbers. I have never seen your map Rigo would love to see it. Blockberger and Ward were always together so I would think they were at Litts I seen Ward that night but not Blockberger Ward was to our right or north. Danny Scott and Johnny Johnson were also on Wards track then maybe Bob Gold track need to ask Danny and Bob about that .
I think at the reunion we will have eoungh weapons Plt. people there to place most of our track

[rigo-ordaz]

SINCE I WAS IN THE COMMAND TRACK AREA AS WE HAD TAKEN THE DEAD AND WOUNDED THERE ,IT WAS IN THAT AREA I THINK I REMEMBER BLOCHBURGER IN THAT AREA THAT'S WHY I THINK HIS TRACK WAS THERE, BUT IT COULD BE HE WENT TO VISIT A FELLOW OFFICER. I DO REMEMBER SEEING OUR COMMANDER BRUCE BRAUN, AFTER HE HAD BEEN BANDAGED UP AND READY TO BE EXTRACTED. ONE OF THE PILOTS HAD A CUT OR GASH IN HEAD-IT COULD HAVE BEEN A BULLET- MAYBE JIM CAN FIND A COPY OF HIS PURPLE HEART. (I HAD WRITTEN AN ADDENDUM TO MY PARTICIPATION AT LITTS, BUT I HIT A WRONG BUTTON AND I WIPED IT OUT- I WILL RE-WRITE IT)

[rigo-ordaz]

IF YOU LOOK AT A PIC OF THE DOWNED HELICOPTER (YOU CAN SEE PICS. IN MEMORIAL PAGES FOR THOSE KILLED AT LITTS)
LOOKING AT THE DOWNED CHOPPER YOU CAN SEE THE BURNED UP TRACK IN THE BACKGROUND, WHICH SHOULD HELP YOU ORIENT LOCATION OF THE DOWNED CHOPPER, AND MIDWAY BETWEEN CHOPPER AND BURNT TRACK WOULD BE THE LOCATION OF THE COMMANDER'S TRACK- RIGO

[Ernie Milito]

Rigo,

E-mail me the map you have. And yes Slazas and I were on 418.

[Jim Sheppard]

This all should be posted in the original thread...now we have the same converstion going on in two threads....which will be confusing to some. It's all good. they'll figure it out. THank you for the input. I'll remind you that this is a "work in progress" and there is no need to get all upset if I show a rough draft you disagree with. it's , again, a rough draft. I AM LOOKING FOR INPUT, Not anger! Please don't emphasize every statement with "I was there". That's condescending to all who have input. They were all there. No one person will have it all right. I am endeavoring to be nuetral...since I was not there, I can pull together the story by looking at what everyone says unbiased by what I recall. If you've had a rough draft of a map of the perimeter that night that you have researched for 25 years, you might share it with me??? Thank you!

Remember. I have witnessed, on more occasions than I care to number, that two men on a battlefield...fighting next to one another...will often paint two entirely different canvases of the events 45 years later.

Overall I am thrilled with the progress we are making and the input from everyone! This is great! I can't put a lot of time into it right now...but I will have something really meaningfull for an archives display in the future.

Anyone having trouble reaching me at my juno address?...you can also use the Association gmail address...which is 50thInfantryAssociation@gmail.com. My every day email is: kiss-ac@juno.com & I just got an e-mail from Lou Frisbie with a ton of information on the command group in 406.

FInally, Rigo, I just got another 36 photos from Milito. I have to trim them all out and crop them...and I will send copies to you when I finish. There are a ton of faces and ernie can't recall the names. I am counting on your memory to help me out. I am wondering if there are any photos of any of our KIAs in the group. Could be, I'm not sure.

[Jim Sheppard]

Please use the original thread for comments on LZ Litts.

[rigo-ordaz]

JUST WANTED TO SHOW THE EXACT SPOT WHERE I WAS AT, AT DIFFERENT TIMES AS COMPARED TO EYEWITNESSES FROM THEIR TRACKS. NO I WAS NOT MAD, BUT YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT AT LEAST BY NOW WE SHOULD BE CLEAR OF THE COMMANDER'S TRACK LOCATION AS WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE AND WE HAVE SOME PHOTOS. MY MAIL IS NOT UP -ALL I HAVE IS A PAPER MAP, AND DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO UPLOAD IT. HOWEVER, I'LL DIG IT UP AND POSSIBLY SNAIL MAIL IT.

[Russ Roth]

Rigo,

You are incorrect about the chopper not being outside the perimeter. Hippy and I ran out in front of our track to it. Two men were still there, one of which was for sure a pilot since he was still in the seat and the other I always thought was the other pilot but may not have been. The chopper seemed to be nearly directly in front of our track but may not have been straight out from us, but close as I recall.

After the battle I remember seeing Capt Braun with his head bandaged and Lettie there also looking very filthy and dirty. It seems like the Command track was almost directly behind us and I think Rigo is closer on the configuration of the perimeter. I always thought (maybe not correctly) all 4 of our tracks were to the east and no others there. I thought we were in more of a circle but Robert Melendez and I spoke today and he basically thought (if I understood correctly) the rectangular configuration.

Lt. Flakne was 3rd platoon leader, had only been there maybe a couple days and this was his first action. I remember his fatigues were still brand new. I have his #, have spoken with him a couple times and need to really try to get him to go to the reunion. He lives in a nearby state so it would not be far travel wise.

One thing I think all of us need to keep in mind is it has been 45 years, each of see things somewhat differently from different vantage points and memories sometime are not as good as we would like. I know for myself anyway, I don't recall everything that happened in any major action but have very clear "snapshots" of certain things.

As my brother likes to say "how did we get this old this fast???" BTW, he is a '70 VN vet also but went as a short timer with only 9 months left in the Army. He also likes to point out he slept in a made bed every night. I tell him I'm really glad he did!

Jim,

I agree with your last post that I see with the preview of mine. Very well spoken, IMHO.

Rigo,

I don't think anyone is mad or anything but FYI typing in caps is considered yelling on the 'puter.

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

Please orient the picture. It was taken facing west. The APC in the background is #412 or what was left of it. That is the western line,and my track was next to it. Right in front of that track going west is the fall off about 3 or 4 ft and then the rice paddy. Further on you can see a big tree- that was the creek bed where we probably got some mortars from. There were phone lines running from the creek bed to the fall off in front of our tracks. Further on you can see the mountains to the west. There were no trees to the East- all you had was the Hwy. 1 and the refugee village. (get a map and check the terrain) I can see how you can get disoriented if you are buttoned up in a track and suddenly somebody grabs you and you get out. Like I mentioned, I was right behind the guy leading the chopper. If I take your assumption for a fact- then we were both outside the perimeter.
Midway between the chopper and the burned track was the commander's track.
Russ I believe there were at least two tracks to your south from the 4th Platoon and two on the south line from the same platoon. From the position of the guy taking the picture there was still quite a space to his rear before you got to the East line of tracks. For one thing, it was an over extended perimeter. From the position of the chopper you could hardly see the north line.

[Russ Roth]

Rigo,

I was not and am not disoriented here. The chopper picture you are speaking of, is it one of my 2? If so I took the one with Anthony Harris in it and he took the one with me. There was nothing but highway 1 to our rear other than maybe some rigs that responded after daylight. None of our company tracks or anything were behind us while taking the picture. Think about this, if, as you claim (am I understanding you correctly?), the chopper fell inside the perimeter, how could Hippie have been looking out of the main hatch, lifted only several inches, and watch it get hit and go down? It would have been behind our track and he would not have been able to see it. It was in front of us and outside the perimeter. Since he was on the right side of the track that would probably put the chopper a bit on the south side of directly in front of us.

Jim,

Would this be detailed in the after action reports? I got my CD out and can open everything on it except that one part where I might find this report. Later I will attempt it on my desktop which I think will open it.

I also have a question for Delta guys. Robert and I replaced Tovar and Provencher with myself as 3rd platoon Medic and Bob had the Mortar platoon. Anthony Harris was the only other Medic I can recall. Does anyone remember another Medic during the time from about mid January until after May 5th when the company was apparently broken up? Robert and I batted this around several months back and I don't think either of us can recall any others. Were there only 3 Medic during that time?

RR

[Jim Sheppard]

There is no AAR for the fight at Litts...at least none survived the trip through channels to a permanent home at the archives. Our only detail comes from the 3rd Brigade, 4th ID Daily Log...and it doesn't have the detaiols we are tossing around here.

[rigo-ordaz]

understand your logic, Russ. Let's how many things we agree upon.

1. Do we agree that the picture was taken facing West?

2. Do we agree there are no tracks in their original position (in Pic) except #412 and
another track and crew checking it out?

3. Do you agree that all 3rd Platoon tracks were facing East?

4. Do you agree that the vision forward (East) is blocked somewhat by the 50 Cal cupola or at times by whatever junk we used to throw up there?


Have you talked to whoever was peeking out the hatch?

The gentleman that got out of the burning track says a medic came and gave him morphine but left him there close to the burning track- we picked him up.
Was there a medic in the 1st platoon?

Russ do you agree that the distance from the east line of tracks to Hwy 1 is two to three times the size of the perimeter as per Jim's map.
5. Given the fact that the chopper moved forward (South) a distance after 1st. intent at
landing,( I was there) giving a better angle being further south of your position, that even if the hatch is open a few inches you could see the chopper crash to your South.

By orienting I mean- in map reading- you have to orient the map or pic.to where the north on the map or pic is facing the physical north. That was one of the first things I learned in map reading at Recon training at Ft. Knox Ky. Didn't mean anything bad by it.
Anyway, let me know which ones you agree with and the ones you disagree, and we'll go from there.

[rigo-ordaz]

Hello, Jim, Russ
Check on Charlie Jamison"s pictures - the first two I believe are of LZ Litts . When we got to Litts that afternoon we thought it was R&R time and we were all drinking beer. Anyway you got track #411 of the 1st. Pltn. facing south and in the background you have the commander"s track #406. There was another track just west of 411, I think it was 414 and then 419 which is facing south west (1st pic)

[Ernie Milito]

Jim,

Check with Rigo but I think Perez was kiled in his tent and not the track?

[rigo-ordaz]

Ernie, Jim
I have no idea where Perez died- What I hear from others is that it was the driver's compartment. I also heard someone died on a tent, but I thought it was Willie Bradford. I remember one guy trying to get out of the track through the driver's hatch but got shot down-but I don't know who he was-I have no idea who was sleeping outside the track- I do remember where everyone was a at in my track.
Ernie - was Lt. Welch in your track? Check Jamison"s pictures, the first two are from Litts.
They put some of my Nam Pictures at --- http://www.imdb.me/filmmakerordaz

[Ernie Milito]

I just remember that he built his tent to the left of my track?

[Ernie Milito]

The LT was not on the track that night. He and I did not get along when he 1st came on board I was pulling point on the track going to the sea, I stoped seeing somthing in the road and he said drive and I said no to find a 500 pounder in the road, Thats when he and I got into it and never road with me again,

[Jim Sheppard]

Son of a bitch! Rigo I could KISS you! You just got me to check out Jamison's photos. I had not put him in this at all...since his photos are some of the first Ray Sarlin put up...and have no descriptions. That first photo is of 419...Bradford's APC...and there he sits! I swear that's got to be him...based on the only photo I have of him...which is a poor newspaper edition photo. Can someone confirm this black dude is Bradford?


As for the man in the tent...That was Bradford...as Rigo says. I got a conforming note from Robert Melendez that Bradford was hit by shrapnel from a Mortar in his tent which he pitched between his APC and the Command Track. Melendez had dinner with Bradford just a few hours before the crap hit the fan!

SInce several of those KIA were drivers, there has been some confusion as to who was which. Some thought they were referring to Perez and they learned they were not. Others did not realize it was perez they were referring to, etc.etc.
Perez' body was so badly burned it could not be identified on sight...hence his brother was notified he was "missing" by the Army. He believes to this day his brother was not killed in the battle. Sad.

Both Sternin and Leavell were drivers as well...which added to some of the confusion...not to mention that 403 (Sternin) and 412 (Leavell and Perez) were right next to one another...one can understand the confusion....oh...and I might add, there was a ferocious firefight going on to boot! ~grin~ I will add that from all this...I am prone to believe that Charlie was aiming for the drivers compartment with his B40s? Anyone else think this could be?? It certainly seems that way. They were not always as stupid as we made them out to be.

[rigo-ordaz]

cj02_jpg.jpg
I believe the NVA and Vietcong were smarter than what we believed them to be.
The other Jamison picture, the group picture was also at Litts that afternoon with track #411 exactly where it was during the battle. I think the drive was a guy named Valenzuela but everybody called him Pancho. If you look in the background you will see the Commander's track # 406 and a tent on the side. That puts the commander's track to the south, not north. The chopper crashed just a bit east of 406, but still inside the perimeter.