QUESTION ON LITTS

[rigo-ordaz]

I think many interesting things came out of this thread, aside from interruptions from people who have misguided
prejudicial viewpoints. One of the major things we are accomplishing is the placement of the tracks around the perimeter. Not an
easy task, considering the lack of documents on this incident , a few pictures. and a long time elapsed. While greatful we have them, some of the documents
like general orders are not totally correct.
Memory alone cannot be counted upon to be correct most of the time, so slowely we are deciphering placement of the tracks and the
crashed helicopter. We need more people who were in the south east to write in.
Although I was belittled in prior entries, I will not give up and will continue to work on this Project as I I dnt

[rigo-ordaz]

,Like in every project or job we do, we have take a look back and do corrections as we go. As an addition to what we have, thanks to Ernie Milito, he pointed out another burning track. We do not have a number but this track was facing south and the flame track was parked behind it at one time. So there were two burned out tracks not only one as thought before.
The following are corrections in the Memorial page. The general orders (for March 9, 1968) for medals are totally wrong because most of those involved were killed right away and could not have done what they were awarded for. Duly noted by Jim Sheppard. What Arturo Perez and I did that night or morning was given to them. While we are in the correction mode, there were not 19 tracks hit. There were 8 to 10 tracks hit with rockets. There were more than 19 tracks in all at Litts.
The 22nd NVA Regiment did not have a 2nd Bn.,they had the 7th, 8th, and 9th Bn. We decimated the 7th and 8th in the battle of Tam Quan, the 9th Bn could not be found.
The Bn. that attacked us at Litts was the 8th and it is possible they got help from the 2nd NVA Regiment.
I think we should do corrections as we go so as not to confuse others.

[Jim Sheppard]

Rigo...thanks for the corrections. I need to update those 4 memorial pages. Don't know where I got that 2nd Battalion nonsense. Clearly it was the 8th. I suppose I may have been confused by the fact that the 8th was en-route to re-enforce the 2nd VC Regiment during this period...as I believe they were under-strength. Still, a formidable force that attacked you guys that night.

[rigo-ordaz]

Thanks Jim. The 2nd NVA/VC Regiment also got hit a hard blow by the 1/50 during the Tet 68 battles. I think some of the Bns were the 197th and 195th.

[rigo-ordaz]

TWO BURNED UP TRACKS
First of all I want to thank everyone that took pictures in Vietnam. Your pictures
help to put the history together. As in the case of LZ Litts, there is no After Action
Report of that action.
We are making and putting together this After Action Report, although many years after we
must try to be as accurate as possible.
Among those fellow veterans who took picture and I am eternally grateful are: Mick
Hawkins, Pedro Tovar, Russ Roth, and Charlie Jameson and there are others.
It is thanks to these pictures that we are putting together our history. Up until
recently, some of us believed there was only one totally burned up APC(#412) Hawkins
picture # 56.
Thanks to Ernie Milito, he pointed out there was a burned up track in the southern
perimeter. This track is in Hawkins picture #55 and Russ Roth's pics# 33 and #34.
Picture #33 shows apc facing south and in background the little hill on the way to
Uplift. The other photos show the same track and is viewd parallel to the creekbed which
ran north and south. In these photos you can see the little hedgerow where the southern
perimeter parked their tracks. So consequently there were two totally burned up tracks.
We know one was #412 from the 1st platoon and now our next hurdle is to find the number
of the other one. Anyone from 1st Platoon want to chime in?
____________________________________________________________

[Jim Sheppard]

I hope everyone Understands, this blog is NOT "all inclusive" of the facts and research on LZ Litts. Many of the documents involved are archived in our Association Archives, and on display at our reunions.

I do not have the sources, but in my research on the APC positions, those with whom I spoke advised that the following APCs were involved in the KIA losses. According to my notes, all three were hit by RPGs. They were:
403:Sternin
412: Perez & Leavell
419: Bradford.

I suspect the APC number Rigo is looking for is Jerry Couch's 419....but I am not certain. I am also NOT saying those KIAs were actually in those vehicles at all times. We know Bradford was not physically in 419 that night.

[rigo-ordaz]

Although a very good subject, let,s not confuse things. We are only talking about
the totally burned out tracks. We know #419 got hit with rockets and so was my track 403
which took 3 rockets but still kept on running.
The only ones that were totally burned down was #412 and the other one on the southern
perimeter. That burned out track was one or two tracks east of #419 and there is a possibility that
it was track #411.
This thread is only to dig up new things and possibly add information to the
archives not to take away from them.

[Russ Roth]

I believe that's the track the burned body was in.

[rigo-ordaz]

Hello Russ. Yeah I think I read that the Flame Track guy mentions that a new guy died there. Who could it be? The newest guy there was Bradford, but they
got him dying in other places.

[Jim Sheppard]

The exact locations of the dead will be hard to pinpoint...due to so many conflicting accounts. I currently have 10 personal accounts...and one theme that seems to repeat itself in these is the phrase "I heard that...". In other words, much of what we know about the descriptive facts of the KIAs is simply hearsay...and cannot be totally taken as valid. About the only death that everyone can agree on is Perez...who was burned beyond recognition to the point that he was initially reported to his kin as "MISSING". According to readily available documentation, of the four killed, Only Bradford and Leavel (Pronounced "level") could be considered "new guys"(Leavel in December and Bradford in February)...but one personal account has Bradford killed in a foxhole behind the APC ALONG WITH 2 new guys. That one I doubt. What I THINK happened in that case was some men may have been very badly wounded and evacuated...never to return although they probably recovered. Many of us can attest to the fact that at certain times, there were men we thought had been killed (in various battles) ...who, in fact, survived...unbeknownst to us. For years I believed that my former Squad Leader, Norm Poage, had died of his massive wounds inflicted by a Bouncing Betty in April of 1968. You can imaging my surprise when I realized the "webmaster" I was exchanging emails with when I first found the Association website in 1998 was, in fact Norm Poage! It was an early lesson that not all we remember as fact is accurate. We must always be open to the only "fact" that is constant...that being we are all mistaken about some things from 45 years past.

[rigo-ordaz]

It is true that some things escape all of us after 45 years but some things remain vivid to those who were there and some things are seared in our minds. Case in point, the death of my driver in #403 Sternin hit by a rocket is not hearsay and we can pinpoint exactly where he died.
The consensus is that Jose Perez and Leavell were killed in track # 412 that burned down.
Bradford who had 25 days in country was the newest guy there. I remember seeing Leavell several times, I don,t remember seeing Bradford, which makes me think he was brought in the truckload of people brought by the 1st. Sgt. that afternoon. Sterning was also brought in that afternoon.
I,ve also heard different accounts of location of Bradford,s death. One was track #419, another was by a tent, and also track 406.
In looking at the other track that burned in the Southern perimeter there are several indications that it was track #411, the First squad of the First Plt. The Memorial list and page for Bradford list him in the First Squad of the First Plt. Two persons have mentioned that someone died in that track, Russ Roth and Croker who was in the Flame track right behind the burned track.
Not everything is written in Stone,but we look for paths that could lead us to the truth.

On the list of those wounded on March 9,1968 there is one KREIDER, who is listed in C company.
I had this Kreider in my squad in AIT. I saw him at Uplift in Delta Co. in Nov. 1967 and then again
in Dec7, 1967 at LZ Pony in the Second Plt. of D Co.and was in Battle of Tam Quan.
He hanged around with Sgt. Jordan. I think he was in Delta Co. but being carried in C Co. roster.
Does anybody remember him?

[Jim Sheppard]

Rigo....good wrap up on the KIAs. That's pretty much what I think happened. I believe Bradford was in a foxhole behind an APC...The "tent" mentioned could have been a poncho or something like some set up attached to the rear of the APC...and a foxhole nearby.

This "list of wounded" you mention must be your own compilation. Please don't use that wording unless you have such a document. The proper way would be to say "By my count" or something of a similar nature. I have a list I have compiled based on all the orders I have collected...mostly from the National Archives, but I did have a few copies trickle in from "D" Company men. Kreider is clearly shown in Charlie Company on the Purple Heart Orders ONLY & so I did not add him to the Litts "D" Company wounded.

Charlie Company had a mine incident at about 7:30 AM on the 9th and several were wounded... med-evac had to be called for 2 of the 5 wounded. This happened not too far from Litts...to the West (BR895718)...so some elements of Charlie likely reacted to that area. I do have a problem with the numbers for the Charlie wounded...as a set of Purple Heart orders shows 6 names wounded for Charlie on the ninth(Dubiel, Sohn, Harada, Cotter, Pearson and Kreider) I seem to recall all the names EXCEPT Kreider...as I was in Charlie Company. Wounded numbers were often wrong in the logs...so I didn't think much of it (Case in point...the reported Litts wounded number is way short).

If someone can tell me this Kreider was with "D" Company at Litts...I can add him with a note explaining the discrepancy (Unfortunately, I have no "D" Company rosters until late in 1968). I have had quite a few of these "D" company assignment "issues" so it would not be the first time I've had this happen. It comes with the nature of the "D" Formation. It was a mess.

Kreider doesn't show up on my Charlie Rosters. He is not on the earliest roster I have from October of 1967...and he is also missing from a roster of April 13th. This doesn't mean much...since he could have easily arrived after October and been severely wounded in March...hence not be on either "C" roster mentioned.

[rigo-ordaz]

The list I,m talking about is the Purple Heart orders where they list Kreider in C Co., not my own list. I saw him at Uplift early Nov. 67. He hanged around Sgt, Jordan
who was in charge of details in D. Co. He was later in the 2nd Plt. of Delta Co.(with sgt Jordan,s squad) in Dec, 1967. From then I don,t know about him, unless he stayed at Uplift doing detail work, Perhaps someone may remember him.
There are pictures of Sgt. Jordan in Ernie Militos photos, he was a big black E 5, and perhaps George Borges might know him. Also a thought, that he was brought out by the 1st sgt. that afternoon.

[Jim Sheppard]

Your shouldn't call one General Order "the list". I currently have close to a dozen different General Orders containing the names of men issued Purple Hearts. Much earlier in this thread I listed all the names extracted from all the orders. If you need to refer to a "list"....use that one please. (It is the 4th post - on page 1 -of this thread). Also...your last post is confusing....as one becomes uncertain if you are describing the sergeant or Kreider? Since I know Kreider was a PFC...I figured it out...others might not have access to the fact that Kreider was a PFC. I think I will add him to "the list" and note that the General Order lists him in "C", which we believe is in error.

[rigo-ordaz]

We shouldn,t argue about the small stuff. I know you have compiled a list from several Purple Heart orders, good job Jim ! I was referring to General Orders No. 1481 which is a list of Purple Heart recipients ,mostly from Delta Co. for March 9, 1968.
In order to clarify a bit.
KREIDER - PFC Kreider
JORDAN - Sgt. E-5 Jordan (Milito,s pictures #2, and #38. On to other things.

There were at least 2 tracks to the right of the burned out track (411) possibly track 410, and 419 (Southwest corner) 412 was facing West. (This is all of 1st. Pltn.)
The position of this burned out track facing South (411) is basically in the center of the perimeter line and somewhat in line with track #406. (See Jameson,s picture # 2)
Jim Croker who was in the flame track parked behind track #411 says. (1)
He goes on to say there was a track to his left (East) that left that área.(2)
He also mentions that another track to the East of his position was firing an M60 machinegun. (3)

(1) I set up our Track behind a small hedge row behind one of the line tracks on the south side of the perimeter.
Late that night I was awakened by a large explosion. As it turned out the Track we parked behind got hit with a RPG.

(2) I noticed the combat was fierce on the west side of the perimeter and as the fighting went on other Tracks were moving over to the west side of the perimeter to help with the fight, including the line Track on our left. That Track checked with me before they left as I said we could handle it.

(3)Later as I saw no more movement from the woods in front of me someone in a track to the east of my spot was firing a M60.


We can see there were at least two tracks East of the burned out track and the flame track, which would make it at least 160 feet to the east perimeter from the burning track and flame track position ample space to land a helicopter in.

Croker also mentions that a new guy died there inside the track. There is a possibility that several others were wounded from that track. By a process of elimination from Jim,s list perhaps we can find others from track 411.

Has anybody been able to contact Jerry Couch from track 419, I have not been able to get in touch with him.

[1linc1]

I've been reading the accounts of the LZ Litts and can provide a little info. I was in the track next to Capt Braun's, we were all mechanics or other mos other than 11b although I don't remember having any tools . Sgt. Fred Quinn was the track leader Larry knowlton was the driver but alternated driving the command track. During the battle at Litts Larry Knowlton was not there . In our track which for the life of me I can't remember the number was Rich Lincoff, Hernandez, Fred Quinn we took an RPGs that hit the side of our track but did not penetrate although wounded three people sleeping on that side of the track. We were bringing the wounded inside our track cause we were not in a position to return fire. We also were bringing ammo for the 50 and m60 to the other tracks . We were the first track to head back to uplift and we were full of wounded. It's been a long time since thinking about that battle or my two years I spent in Vietnam . If any other memories pop up I'll try to post them

[rigo-ordaz]

I've been reading the accounts of the LZ Litts and can provide a little info. I was in the track next to Capt Braun's, we were all mechanics or other mos other than 11b although I don't remember having any tools . Sgt. Fred Quinn was the track leader Larry knowlton was the driver but alternated driving the command track. During the battle at Litts Larry Knowlton was not there . In our track which for the life of me I can't remember the number was Rich Lincoff, Hernandez, Fred Quinn we took an RPGs that hit the side of our track but did not penetrate although wounded three people sleeping on that side of the track. We were bringing the wounded inside our track cause we were not in a position to return fire. We also were bringing ammo for the 50 and m60 to the other tracks . We were the first track to head back to uplift and we were full of wounded. It's been a long time since thinking about that battle or my two years I spent in Vietnam . If any other memories pop up I'll try to post them

Thanks for your post. Any information helps, case in point, if you hadn,t mentioned it, I would have never known that the track next to #406 was hit with an RPG. I also can,t remember the number of your track. There were some tracks that didn,t have a number, I know there was one in the third platoon. Sometimes it hurts to remember but I think over all it helps to talk or write about it. Do you remember the Medevac coming in?

[Jim Sheppard]

A few months back, Rigo corrected my error made on the memorial pages for the men killed at Litts when he stated:

The 22nd NVA Regiment did not have a 2nd Bn.,they had the 7th, 8th, and 9th Bn. We decimated the 7th and 8th in the battle of Tam Quan, the 9th Bn could not be found.
The Bn. that attacked us at Litts was the 8th and it is possible they got help from the 2nd NVA Regiment.

I have been embroiled in so many projects that I had to leave these corrections on the side for a while. I have finally taken some time to make some changes. I should point out that it's not the 2nd NVA Regiment that assisted the 8th Battalion of the 22nd NVA Regiment...it was the 2nd VC Regiment.

I am in the process of correcting the 4 memorial pages involved. Thank you Rigo.

[rigo-ordaz]

Thank you jim. What can I tell about the 2nd. It might have been designated as a VC Rgt. but its tropos were so depleted after several encounters with us
and the First Cav. especially after the Tet Offensive. There were not enough local recruits to fill the ranks and many were brought in from the North so it
was more of an NVA Rgt but also doing VC and propaganda work. Anyway we might call it the 2nd VC- NVA Rgmt. Greetings to all.

[Jim Sheppard]

Rigo....good synopsis on the 2nd VC Regiment.

After TET in 1968, this decimation of NLF ranks was widespread. Basically, the entire order of battle of the NLF was flooded with men from the NVA. The National Liberation Front was deceived. They simply wanted recognition in the government of the south...the NVA wanted complete victory and the entire country under the Communist form of government...but allowed the leadership structure of the NLF to believe they would have a serious voice in governing the country after victory over the ARVN. I have several books which document the treatment of the NLF after the war ended in 1975. Many who fought for the south were imprisoned with no "Habeas Corpus", former members of the ARVN were told they needed to report for "re-education" and could return home after some "schooling". They were thrown into what amounted to death camps...many spending years there....many being simply executed.

This 2nd VC Regiment maintained that name, but was "VC" in name only, as you described. It was all part of the massive collection of media lies the North promulgated...to make it appear that the NLF was the major opponent of the US and ARVN forces....when, as we know, it was the NVA. I recall seeing the 2nd VC Regiment identified in very few contacts in our AO....and never anything major.