QUESTION ON LITTS

[harley hawkins]

Gary

That makes since to me about the APC numbers. I'm not sure why our APC got number 823 as we were in D company, unless 323 was a replacement APC that would have come from C company having the 300 number maybe just maybe when they changed numbers and seem the 323 maybe they thought it was a C company APC and it looked like an easy fix to just make the front 3 into an 8 and they was done. I really never knew why or if I did I have forgot. I'm giving a small talk to a group today and I plan on talking about Chuck Ogle (commander of medevac that went down ). When I ask him why he came in to that hot LZ his answer was it was my job. Great Guy in my book.


mick Hawkins

[rigo-ordaz]

Mick, if I understood correctly on what Gold said that Blochberger was in Ward,s track? I remember seeing him in the southern sector, but perhaps he went to visit someone.

G. Quint thanks for your input, clears some things somewhat, I know we got medic tracks also and painted over the red cross. I know 442 was one of them. When we came under the 173rd. we went back to 3 line pltns, did away with Delta Co., and started the Scout Pltn which did away with the numbers.

Upon Reading what Jim Croker (flame Platoon), wrote he mentions parking close to a small hedge row on the southside. I think that small hedgerow is in Jamison.s picture of track 411. He also mentions that they parked behind a line plt. track. That track got hit with a rocket and ammo started blowing up. My question is this. Could that track be 411, or 410 or perhaps another track on the south side? He also mentions some track going to the west side to help. I don,t remember any tracks coming to help.

( The complete write up is in this thread, an excerpt is included below)

After some time on patrol with Delta Co., we arrived at LZ Litts to camp for the night. I set up our Track behind a small hedge row behind one of the line tracks on the south side of the perimeter. Late that night I was awakened by a large explosion. As it turned out the Track we parked behind got hit w(ith a RPG. Immediately Erick and I prepared for combat with our M16s. I noticed the combat was fierce on the west side of the perimeter and as the fighting went on other Tracks were moving over to the west side of the perimeter to help with the fight, including the line Track on our left

The chopper circled as the pilot saw that lz was still hot. Somebody called him that the firing had slackened up and that,s when he came in.

[harley hawkins]

No. Bob did not say lt. Blochberger was on his APC he said lt. Tilton was on his APC

mick hawkins

[rigo-ordaz]

Mick, the way I understood was that Blochburger was two tracks west of him that would make it Wards 424 track.

Postby harley hawkins » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:12 pm
an Mickey Talked to Bob Gold a few minutes ago. He thought Lt. Blochberger was two APC away from him on the west side. Lt. Tilton was with Bob than Higgins than Ward than George Borges than Mickey #1. Bob did remember them changing some of our APC to 800 numbers but this was will after Litts and he said Sgt Kerr had told him why but he forgot.and that would probably make it Ward,s track.

By this count that would make it 5 tracks, but we knew that all Pltns had only 4 squads.

[harley hawkins]

Rigo

That is right the George Borges APC is the one we don't know about. It would not have been with our plt. What plt did you say he hung out with.


Mick hawkins

[rigo-ordaz]

Mick, just south of your position was the last track of 2nd Plt. George could have been in it. This is not 100 per cent.but I did see him in the 2nd Plt often, but if he was a Mechanic he could have been anywhere. Has anybody been able to talk or write to George? Ernie Milito has some pics with him and I think they used to hang sround together.

Well, tonight I put the known tracks together on a board and there is a big spot open in the southeast corner that could fit 4 more tracks or in other words a 4th platoon.
I believe we had a 4th platoon aside from the Heavy Mortar Pltn. at that time or else who filled that spot?

Anybody have an e mail adress for the Flame track guy by the name Jim Croker?

[Russ Roth]

I don't have Jim's e-mail but it may be in the 1/50th list if he has one.

I will admit I didn't pay much attention to organization like other guys may have since that was not part of my responsibility at all. You guys were enough of a worry. However I don't ever recall an extra platoon which is what it sounds like Rigo is asking about.

I do think you guys are wrong about when the #'s were painted out and I believe I can prove it if you look at my pictures on the site. Look at 29-32. They are all of Beak (Thomas) and his track and notice the development date on the edges. I sent those home and Mom had them developed right away so this should be a dead giveaway. However, to throw a monkey wrench in the works also look at #'s 15, 20 ,21, 47 and 53. 15, 20 AND 21 are also dated March with #'s. # 47 is dated May and shows 2 with #'s and 1 without. # 53 is dated Jun, '68 and I very distinctly remember Tom Funkhouser and I washing (why???) the track and this was when the May 5th fight occurred. If you look closely over my shoulder you can see a # on this track. The only track that we lost during my time was March 18th so I suspect this might be the replacement. Wish I could read that #. And yes, I used to be really skinny. Looks like this might be why there is some confusion on this issue.

And I just now noticed in 47 a B-21 right below the extra piece of track. What does that mean or signify??

RR

[rigo-ordaz]

Russ, I checked the footage of battle of Tam Quan to see if I could spot another number of your Pltn. I saw 413, 414 and 415 and then I saw another track without a number that could of belonged to the 3rd Pltn. So there is a possibility that your 4th track didn,t have a number,
On the West side there were 8 tracks including the ones facing Northwest, and southwest. On the East side we,ve only counted your 4 tracks belonging to the 3rd Plt. Do you remember seeing tracks south of you? That number B 21 could of indicated that the track had belonged to B company at one time? One of my tracks had A and a number that I dont remember now, but it was a A Co Medic track No. 442.
I don,t know when the scouts painted over the numbers and painted the guidon on it. It could have been in April or perhaps in May, but there,s pictures in the scout section. They did away with Delta as a line unit, and I don,t know if they kept the numbers or not.
What,s got my attention is that empty spot. Well, actually there were tracks there but we don,t know who they were or what numbers they had.

Mick, saw in the footage track 343, and 425 and also a mortar track without a number, and the Zippo. We,re getting there slowly but surely.

[Russ Roth]

Rigo,

Truthfully the only thing I can say for sure about the perimeter was we were on the East side facing highway 1 and there was at least one of 3rd platoon tracks on either side of us but how many tracks to the South I can't recall. Shouldn't there have been 16 tracks for the platoons, a command track, zippo was there and I know we never had a medic track (my time) with D company and I don't recall a mechanic track. Not sure anybody had one of those. So probably 18 total tracks? Sounds like there is a platoon missing somehow? Or at least 4 tracks one of which is 3rd platoons (that # anyway) although it was likely the second one South of my tracks location. Well it had to be after the discussion we had at the reunion since Noel was North of us and next to another platoons track on the other side of him.

I also could say the Medevac was pretty much almost right in front of us. Chuck Ogle and Noel Allen confirmed this for me. Noel knew he was to the North of us and Chuck and Noel were both able to pinpoint basically the exact position the bird hit. It was really great to meet and have Chuck there and it gave a perspective none of us on the ground could have.

When did Delta go away as a company? I remember 3rd platoon spending quite some time with a Battalion of ARVN Rangers. We didn't actually do anything that I remember except camp out in the middle of the whole Battalion. These guys were actually pretty sharp and took some prisoners. One made the mistake of attempting escape one night but he met an untimely end. It seems like I went to A company after this or after we were on bridge guard at Bong Son. I don't remember being with the D company as a whole for maybe a month or more. You guys remember anything of that time frame prior to May 5th?

Rigo You need to come to a reunion (with an open mind) and I can almost guarantee you would not only see old friends, make new ones, learn things you did not know and from a different perspective, it would be very helpful for you to deal with some of these things you struggle with from the past. Many guys will tell you it has been very beneficial for them and with some you can see it from one reunion to the next!

RR

[harley hawkins]

You know . I went though basic with A company and life was simple. Then they said you are hq company 4.2 mortars than a officer said we were heavy weapons and recoiless rifle and that never happen . Than we were told we were part of D company as a mortar plt but we were always used like a line plt. with the cav. Than just before Litts we went to the 4th Inf and they took all the 4.2 mortars out and sent them to uplift and replaced them with the 81 all but 425 . We were with the 4 inf. at Litts but didn't stay went them very long as we went to the 173 about april I know we was with the 173 May 5th and was in the field used as a line plt again. After may 5th with the 173 we were kind of split and some did bridge guard and some did ambushs. I,m sure we were no longer 4.2 mortars but do not know what they called us if anything.

[rigo-ordaz]

( Russ Roth)Truthfully the only thing I can say for sure about the perimeter was we were on the East side facing highway 1 and there was at least one of 3rd platoon tracks on either side of us but how many tracks to the South I can't recall. Shouldn't there have been 16 tracks for the platoons, a command track, zippo was there and I know we never had a medic track (my time) with D company and I don't recall a mechanic track. Not sure anybody had one of those. So probably 18 total tracks? Sounds like there is a platoon missing somehow? Or at least 4 tracks one of which is 3rd platoons (that # anyway) although it was likely the second one South of my tracks location. Well it had to be after the discussion we had at the reunion since Noel was North of us and next to another platoons track on the other side of him.

(RIgo Ordaz) The way I understood it is that we had 4 line platoons plus the Heavy Mortar Plt. That would take care of that gap if this is true. I was counting the ones that don,t have numbers also so after that there are those four slots.

(Russ Roth(I also could say the Medevac was pretty much almost right in front of us. Chuck Ogle and Noel Allen confirmed this for me. Noel knew he was to the North of us and Chuck and Noel were both able to pinpoint basically the exact position the bird hit. It was really great to meet and have Chuck there and it gave a perspective none of us on the ground could have.

(Rigo Ordaz) It,s been a while since I posted on this subject. I have been researching it and instead of going with my opinión I,ll let the facts speak for themselves. Let,s take for instance your photo of the downed helicopter. If you see in the background you,ll see what was left of track 412 that burned down. If you trace a line directly from that track going East you will find that the downed helicopter is on that line or even a bit south of it.
Track 412 was the first track facing West about 100ft more or less from the southern perimeter. So the downed helicopter was (according to the photo) in the southern sector and not a northern sector.
This is what Jim Croker of the Flame track had to say about the helicopter.
After some time on patrol with Delta Co., we arrived at LZ Litts to camp for the night. I set up our Track behind a small hedge row behind one of the line tracks.
a Dust-Off was hovering to the east of me and I thought to myself if he tries to land he will never make it out of here. This place was just too hot. But the Dust Off WAS trying to land and I saw bullets hitting it especially around the engine. Then the Dust Off turned upside down and hit the ground hard sending torn off parts flying past my head.

(Rigo Ordaz) This man and the flame track were in the Southern line perimeter. He saw bullets hitting engine and then parts of the chopper went flying by him. So the chopper crashed in the southern sector and close to the flame track. If the chopper crashed in the northern perimeter, at least 600 to 800 ft. away , he could not have seen the bullets or had debri flying by him.

(Russ Roth) Rigo You need to come to a reunion (with an open mind) and I can almost guarantee you would not only see old friends, make new ones, learn things you did not know and from a different perspective, it would be very helpful for you to deal with some of these things you struggle with from the past. Many guys will tell you it has been very beneficial for them and with some you can see it from one reunion to the next!

(Rigo Ordaz) Thanks for the invite. If it weren,t you I would be offended, and just cause I stand for what I believe, doesn,t mean I don,t have an open mind. I am sure it would be nice to go if ever I can afford it. If I do or don,t have problems from the past it is something not to be discussed in a public fórum. Although I know you mean well.

[rigo-ordaz]

I noticed in the board of perimeter put together at the reunión, that there is a track 417 in the southern perimeter. Does anybody have any
information on this track, the number or how it got there?

[Jim Sheppard]

In regards to Rigo's request for info on 417... I do not recall where I came up with the number but I think someone might have been speculating in correspondences and/or e-mail exchanges before the reunion about what APC numbers might have existed. That could be how that number showed up. Since I was not at the gathering to monitor discussions and uncertainties...the group might have assumed I knew something they did not. BUT, I had placed NO cards in any order before the meeting...they were simply stacked up on the table...so maybe someone who knows can help with placement or ID? As I stated before, I also had APC cards with no numbers...hoping someone might fill in a missing number, but since I was not there, no one knew to do this.

I'll do better next time.

[rigo-ordaz]

Thanks Jim, I,m hoping someone might know about that track. There,s about four that we don,t know about in the SouthEast corner.

On Hawkins and Lt. Blochberger pictures No. 55 we have the other track that burned facing South. Ernie Milito was correct in saying he saw a burning track to the South and the other one was 412 facing West. ()Next photo 56)
Track on pic 55 is the one the Flame track was behind according to Croker. The question is now was that track 411, or 410 from the 1st Plt. or another one altogether. Croker also mentions that there was one killed there.something to think about.

Mick, is that you in the picture or Lt. Blochberger?

[rigo-ordaz]

Lt. Snodgrass was the prior platoon leader of 3rd plt, D Co. till Lt. Flackne took over.
While surfing the internet came across this blast from the past. I don,t know if you remember when the assoc didn,t have a message board
for one reason or another and I set up one for a while. Once this board was up , I did away with the other one. Here is one page ....
http://www.voy.com/198171/1/

[Jim Sheppard]

I certainly remember that stretch when Ray Sarlin dropped his webmaster ball. I have been trying to maintain the website since that year end...January, 2006. Keeps me busy.

[Russ Roth]

Lt. Snodgrass was the prior platoon leader of 3rd plt, D Co. till Lt. Flackne took over.
While surfing the internet came across this blast from the past. I don't know if you remember when the assoc didn't have a message board
for one reason or another and I set up one for a while. Once this board was up , I did away with the other one. Here is one page ....
http://www.voy.com/198171/1/

Yes, Lt. Snodgrass is the name I couldn't recall.

I have not taken the time to respond because Saturday night one of our twin daughters broke her leg at Homecoming. In a bounce house??? Really?? Things have sure changed from when we were kids I guess. We were in ER until 3 AM. Then she had to see her own Doc and they did surgery on her leg Wednesday morning. Two screws and a pin. Poor girl was really scared since the thought of any kind of surgery was almost more than she wanted to think about and was afraid she would not wake up. I'm with her on that since I consider a shot major surgery! LOL

She is doing OK but in a lot of pain. She was crying this am it was hurting so badly. Hard to really do anything other than pain medication but it's tough to watch when you know how much she is hurting. The medication makes her reasonably comfortable but she did not get much sleep last night because of the pain. I asked her why she didn't wake me up and bless her heart she tells me she doesn't want to bug me. I asked her how long have you been here?? Three years she says and I tell her well you've been bugging me that long now so what would be changed?? That got a smile out of her so was good.

I will be leaving early Thursday am for deer hunting in Eastern OR with my brother and at least one of his sons. Not sure Jacob will go or not. He has not committed yet. Some of you met him at a couple of the reunions as he was assigned to Bennning. So I won't be reading anything for at least a week.

RR

[harley hawkins]

Sorry to hear about your Daughter. That can be so stressful. Hope your brother gets to go with you and have a save and successful trip.

Take care my friend

Harley Mick Hawkins

[Russ Roth]

Thanks Mick. She is doing better and not taking as much of the meds but she is still in a quite a bit of pain part of the time. I just put her on the bus. School district sent a bus with a lift for her. Not sure how my wife managed that over the weekend and maybe I don't wanna know.

RR

[harley hawkins]

If this discussion did nothing else for me it got me thing what happen after D company. I guess I just didn't think much about it you knew what you were doing not much about the others. I talked with Danny Scott the other night and he said he and Channey went to An Khe and guarded the Green Line, Sgt Ward went to work with the ARVA ( note after Tam Quan Ward was not a big ARVA fan ) Sgt Bell I know went to Saigon as he told me so and spent another year in Nam there.

mick